A popular member of the G3S (and this forum) has long referred to his 8750 class loco as the "plastic bugger", as I understand it, that is a reference to its "easy build" characteristics!
I have five unfinished GRS loco kits on hand, two of these being of the 8750 class loco.
I decided that being "Easy Build" (a quote from GRS's own advertising) it would be a simple/quick task to "knock out" these two before reverting to other urgent tasks.
As is normal practice, I started with one of the chassis.
As a starting point, to the list of tools given in the instructions, you can add 8BA and 10BA taps (and a tap wrench) plus No.49 & No.54 drills (or metric equivalents).
Unexpected obstacles so far encountered (and overcome but with "time" penalties) are:-
1) Axle keep screw holes in steel mainframes enlarged with No.49 drill and tapped 8BA, the instructions make no mention of this (also beware, the instructions erroneously refer to 6BA being the size of screw required but 8BA screws are supplied.....drilling for 6BA clearance would seriously weaken the brass axle keep castings).
2) Brake hanger screw holes in steel mainframes enlarged with No.54 drill and tapped 10BA (again no mention of this in the instructions).
3) Hornblock guides/Axle keeps : Holes need opening to 8BA clearance and then elongating to match the spacing of the holes in the steel frames.
4) Coupling Rods : These are not completely machined, it being necessary to reduce the rods to half-thickness where the overlap occurs at the centre crankpins.
(the rods are not strictly the correct shape; they are parallel whereas should be "fish-belly" pattern but not much you can do to correct, other than scrap and make new rods).
The dummy "knuckle joint" (indicated by a small hole in the longer of the rods) needs to be drilled out and a representation of the pivot fitted... I drilled to 8BA clearance, inserted a cheesehead 8BA steel screw, soldered it in, then filed the head down to remove the slot.
5) Gearbox axle holes required enlarging slightly to accept axle.
6) The arrangement intended to retain the motor/gearbox (described as "Motor Torque Bar" in the instructions) is 8mm too short and will not reach the gearbox mounting holes when anchored to the locating point on the frame spacer!
Well, I haven't yet got to touching the "plastic" parts but can already appreciate how this kit acquired its nickname!
John.
Don't forget "KISS", an acronym introduced by the U.S. Navy for "keep it simple, stupid", as a principle for reliable design !
Now GRS supply the contraption in the first two photos for securing the motor gearbox (in fact it wouldn't work because the parts don't fit!) but all you have to do is rotate both the gearbox attachment block and the adjacent frame spacer (the anchor point) through 90 degrees (so the already threaded holes are horizontal instead of vertical) and all you then need is the long 6BA bolt (see 3rd and 4th photos) and none of the other paraphernalia!
A classic case of "KISS" and make better!
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/8750_gbox1.jpg)
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/8750_gbox3.jpg)
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/8750_gbox4.jpg)
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/8750_gbox5.jpg)
John.
I have one of these in the cupboard waiting to be started so will find how you get on your build most interesting.
The genuine 'Plastic Bugger' was at Reading yesterday!
The 'Pirate'
Ian,
Was it still trying to backwards and forwards at the same time or have the gremlins been exorcised from the electronics?!
John.
8793 ran for 20 minutes in forward mode on a rolling road; Sod's Law, it did not perform it's reverse trick. However some other G3S members on the stand commented they had heard of others having similar problems. Mark, if you are reading this, has a loco driven forwards ever gone into uncontrollable reverse with you?
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
PS - following the rolling road test, 'she' shunted round the 'test tract' with no problems for the rest of the day.
In my experiience that is a Mac5 fault. When the engine flies into full reverse it means the Mac5 is faulty and this is to be sent back to Brian Jones for resetting as it is beyond my abilities to rectify. It may have taken a thump of power and overloaded something within the circuitry.
I have never had any of my locos do this, but i have seen others such as Rogers Prairie wheer it used to eat Mac5's due to the fact he was using 2 flat lithium batteies. He now has AA rechargeables. It was just over the maximum capacity of the Mac5 and it cooked it every time. It always happens at low speeds when the resistance is at its highest.
Mark
OLD shoes for NEW!
The two panniers I am building are Nos. 4667 (built Dec. 1943) and 5786 (built Jan. 1930).
The GRS kit is supplied with the later type of (single piece, cast steel) brake hangers which are appropriate for 4667 but not for 5786 as built.
The "old style" cab batches and some of the early "enlarged cab" (8750 class) batches were fitted, when new, with fabricated hangers of a different profile.
While many (but by no means all) of the earlier locos ended their lives fitted with replacement cast type hangers, my model requires the early type.
I made patterns from which to cast replacements in resin (see comparison photo below).
It may seem a trivial modification but helps to highlight the differences between the two versions of this, the most numerous class of British locomotive.
If you are building a 57XX (or an early 8750) in original condition and require the original type of brakes, these are available for the cost of the postage (address as in the G3S membership list).
John.
The "Plastic Bugger" earns its stripes!
I am now beginning to understand how it became known as the "Plastic Bugger".
I knew from an early trial fit that the motor sits too high for the main body casting to fit over it ..... I had already lopped 2.5mm off the top end of shaft to bring it down to the top of the flywheel (which itself only just clears the electric terminals).
Now the chassis has been completed and the running plate fitted, it was time to see whether the body would fit over the motor.....it didn't....there was a 1.5mm gap between lower and upper sections of the body.
First inclination was to remove the flywheel and lop more off the shaft (general view is that in G3 a flywheel of that size performs no useful function). The flywheel is so firmly jammed onto the shaft that I dare not risk damaging the motor bearings trying to remove it.
Only alternative was to remove material from the inside of the firebox to clear the motor.
If you are building one of these kits, you will, by now, know that the list of tools for this "easy build" loco does not include a set of Forstner drill bits....but you are going to need one....35mm diameter, to be precise.
The firebox roof is 6mm thick in the area to be "reduced", so aim to remove around 2mm depth and no more than 3mm.
Drill a pilot hole first (to engage the point of the Forstner bit) and this will go right through the roof of the firebox (fortunately there is no external detail in this area and the hole can later be filled with Isopon P38).
Drill at the slowest speed possible (about 60 to 100 rpm is a good speed) since you will risk splitting (or going straight through) the casting (also you will generate a lot of heat if too fast).
Photos show the tank "before" and "after"; the motor; the Forstner drill (in case you are not familiar with that type .... one use is for cutting hinge recesses in kitchen cabinets); the inside of the tank with the recess and, finally, the hole to be filled!
John.
You missed your calling John. You should have done key hole surgery
Mark
Well, if you thought you now had the motor problem sorted....think again!
With the tank/boiler unit in position, the cab overhangs the rear of the running plate by about 0.75mm.
The problem is insufficient clearance between the motor and the rear inside face of the tank (the tank unit is forced rearwards by about 2mm and consequently the cab unit is displaced from its correct position).
A recess needs to be cut in the tank unit rear (both top and bottom sections). Fortunately, it has been possible to retain the cab locating lug (on this loco at least...the other has a larger diameter motor, so it may not be possible to retain it) by contouring the inner surface to match the curvature of the motor.
Photos show result of a couple of hours, sawing, carving, filing and sanding.
You may recall a popular pair of TV comedians from the 1960's/1980's, one of their catch phrases being, "What do you think of it so far?!"
Their response sums up my feelings about this "easy build" kit.
John.
Last night turned my attention to the tank/boiler castings.
In general, they are quite well detailed (including some extraneous banding which was not on the real thing!) although the "finish" of the castings is a little coarse/rough in places (due to file and other marks, etc. on the patterns from which the parts were cast).
The two locos. I am building have different features on the tank tops, so I will list the mods. in three sections.
1) Applicable to both 57XX and 8750 sub-class :
a) Remove the "banding" from the tank tops/sides .... these locos had either riveted tanks or welded ... in the latter case the weld was barely visible (just a very slightly raised thin line). DO NOT remove the "band" nearest the cab if you are modelling a loco with the prominent top-feed fitment.
b) Remove the "band" on top of the firebox (the one centred on the valve casing).
c) Reduce (chamfer) the rather too prominent long "edges" of the curved central portion of the boiler top casing (the edge is barely visible in photos.).
2) Applicable to 57XX and early 8750 class without top-feed and with original (circular) tank fillers.
a) Remove top-feed casing.
b) Remove oval tank fillers and bases.
c) Check photos. but 57XX (and possibly some early 8750 class) locos did not have the inverted "T" iron transverse stays (just behind smokebox and across firebox) they were fitted with plain "flat" stays....so remove the vertical leg of the "T".
d) Remove the tank "band" in front of the cab (this band is only required on locos with top-feed).
3) 8750 class with oval tank fillers .... early examples had circular fillers...check photos.
a) Remove the filler HINGED COVER ONLY (this is mentioned in the instructions....a metal casting is supplied to replace the resin cover).
DETAILS MISSING
There are a few items missing from the tank top which are visible in most photos.
1) A wedge-shaped cover of triangular cross-section, on the RH side of smokebox, just below chimney (the locos were not superheated, so I can only assume it covers pipework associated with the regulator lubricator....does anyone know?). It does not appear on the 1929 Swindon GA drawing but is visible on photos taken both in late GWR and BR periods. Unfortunately, all the 1930's GWR photos I have found have either been of the LH side, or, if of RH side, taken from ground level making it impossible to know whether the cover is present or not. At moment I don't know whether this cover was present on the early locos when built or is a later addition but am making enquiries.
2) Photos show protrusion on the front of the cab, just to right of the whistles (looking forward from cab) , which covers pipework (don't know whether this is original fitting since not shown on GA and older photos taken from wrong angles to judge).
3) There are a couple of small cover plates missing, which I shall add.
By the way.....if you have reached the point in construction where you are about to apply the transfers, you will need to know this.
The route classification under the GWR was BLUE .... the restriction was eased to YELLOW in BR days.....the GRS transfer sheet for GWR provides a YELLOW transfer, which is incorrect.
Another snippet of info.; the route classification was moved from high up on the cabsides, to just above the number plates during the war, to aid with identification during the "blackout".
More soon!
John.
The pannier duo have been side-lined for a couple of months, while pointwork construction and tracklaying took precedence.
Raining all day today, so decided to tackle some "butchery" on the tank of 5786, to provide clearance for the motor.
The motor supplied with this kit is a Mabuchi RS-545, which is of a slightly larger diameter when compared with the motor (no indication of origin) which came with the (otherwise identical) kit for 4667.
This necessitated a larger recess being cut into the rear of the tank castings, as shown in photo. (shown during test fitting .... aperture still needs tidying).
John.
P.S. If you have one of these 8750 (57XX) pannier kits, what type of motors does it have..... the RS-545 or the "anonymous" type as shown further up this page?
The mystery of the wedge-shaped casing on the smokebox at the base of the chimney has been solved ... thanks to Bill Bedford.
The 1929 Swindon GA does not show the casing but Bill's pipework drawing dated 1928 (an NBL works drawing) does show it, covering pipework unions and providing access to a steam cock, etc.
Since that NBL drawing covers the first-built batch (including No. 5700), I think one can safely assume that all subsequent builds would have carried the cover from new (I am told that, like the LMS 3F tank, the 57XX were known as "Jockos" by enginemen ... presumably a reference to the fact that the initial orders for both classes came from the Glasgow works of NBL).
John.
Hoping for a GWR 57XX for Christmas?... Read this before you start.
If you receive a GRS kit for the GWR 57XX 0-6-0PT, then you will need to know the faults and foibles to watch out for (and there are quite a few)!
The chassis problems have been catalogued earlier in this thread (I shelved my pair of locos after assembling the chassis and have only recently begun to sort out the bodywork).
So far I have worked on the cab and tank/boiler castings for No. 4667, which was built in 1943 and has the Collett cab, tall whistle shield and top feed casing (basically the format of the kit as supplied).
First act is to put the chimney in the spares box and substitute the tapered cast iron type from GRS (the type supplied as a whitemetal casting with the Dean Goods kit). The 57XX/8750 class were all built with the tapered chimney and never carried the type supplied with the kit.
The Cab Unit anomalies
1) The roof sliding ventilator is too wide.
2) Remove the bunker top beading (there is a brass etch which replaces it..don't plant it over the resin bead...it will then be too thick)
3) The rain strips are not very convincing : Replaced mine with 1mm x 1.5mm brass angle.
4) Check the holes for the cabside vertical handrails.... one required moving almost a millimetre to make handrail vertical.
5) The circular recess in the cab backplate (to accommodate the handbrake movement) is missing.
Tank/Boiler anomalies
1) There are raised bands around the tanks (and one above the firebox, centred on the SV bonnet) which should not be there! Remove all except the one adjacent to the cab front which is part of the pipe arrangement for the top feed (remove only if you are modelling a boiler without top feed).
2) The "hinged" cylinder cover (below the smokebox door) is set too far back : The frames need extending forward by about 1.5mm and a new cover is required.
3) The profile of the cladding on the smokebox front is wrong (and the prominent rivets are missing).
4) The washout plug covers on the firebox shoulders are puny little "pimples", whereas they should be bulbous affairs.
5) The hinged washout covers on the rear of the boiler (where it meets the firebox) are missing.
6) The most glaring omission is the large pressed steel cover which sits below the chimney on the right hand side and runs the length of the smokebox (it covers lubrication pipes and steam cocks).
7) The insert representing the safety valves (it sits inside the brass bonnet) is not supplied.
8 ) The small pipe/manifold pressed steel cover is missing from the firebox top abutting to cab front.
Also spotted : I have not yet soldered up the running plate but inspection of the etchings reveals a serious fault with the cab steps.
The steps are asymmetrical, so there should be one pattern for the RHS and another for the LHS. Both on the etch are to the same LHS pattern.
This mean you will have to fill holes, drill new ones and then fold up the etch the opposite way intended by the design (which will inevitably result in a weakened unit unless additional strengthening is added). Cunningly, since obviously being aware of the fault from assembly of the the model featured in the instructions, there is no mention of the fault AND all the photos accompanying the instructions have been taken of the LHS, presumably to conceal the problem.
They still have the cheek to call this an "Easy-build" kit .... their interpretation of that phrase differs considerably from what most people would understand it to mean!
I have listed faults discovered so far and, when I have a bit more time, will describe in more detail the remedies and provide some sketches and photos.
Merry Christmas!
John.
Have continued working on the cab which has proven to be a bit of a "bugger", not least because of difficulty accessing the interior to measure and fix the detailing!
The exterior: Note the reshaping of the floor at the cab entrance, the addition of door handles and top edge beading to the doors. The doors were set crooked in the casting and were slit along the offending edges and glued back parallel with the entrance apertures.
The interior : This took a lot of sorting out....largely the result of being supplied with a bag containing a large quantity of small castings which had no means of identification and no instructions on assembly.
A whole day was spent just trawling through books and the web to find close-up views of the cab interior and identifying the parts.
The best advice I can give is to ignore the photos which accompany the instructions (they appear to be taken using a different, brass, kit ) and use photos from preserved 57XX locos.
A major trap (literal pitfall) awaiting you, is the location cast into the floor of the cab to locate the reverser. DON'T do as I did and plant the reverser into it. Fortunately, I immediately went on to fit the rear axle springs and positioned the cab floor into the cab shell to check the height : It was immediately obvious that the lever was sitting far too low and was not far enough out from the centre line. Luckily, the superglue had not fully cured and I was able to remove the lever rachet from the "pit" without damage to either part. The "pit" was then filled with Isopon and the reverser re-positioned, a "casing" (visible in photos) also being added to the inboard side of the rachet. Note the position of the smaller lever adjacent to the rachet and springs....it is in a very different position to that shown in the instructions.
The Running Plate : WARNING
The hanging bars (a.k.a. valances) are steel angle (brass on the model) but note that the flange fixed to the running plate faces outwards NOT inwards on 57XX locos.
The instructions tell you to locate "about 4mm" in from the edge of the running plate but that should refer to the outer edge of the fixing flange : The vertical bars should be a scale 6 inches (6.75mm) inset from the edge. If you fit as per instructions, then the drop end plates will be almost flush with the buffer plank ends, instead of being noticeably inset.
Decision time!
The fixing flange on the brass etch is far wider than scale, so fitting the "right way" round will not work. The running plate in the kit is steel which is over scale (of necessity.......you only need to look at the bent corners of running plates in old photos of these locos to see why) so adding to the visible thickness is probably not wise. The only sensible method is to have the flange facing inwards but the vertical bar inset by the correct distance.... 6.75mm NOT "about 4mm"!
There will be ramifications when you come to fit the steps to the running plate and possibly with other fittings (e.g. the sand boxes) but they can be dealt with when that stage has been reached.
Photos illustrating some of the cab and boiler mods are attached and fuller explanations will follow.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/eR5unG/4667cab1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eR5unG)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gX1ygb/4667cab2.jpg)[/url]
(http://thumb.ibb.co/mUAfuw/4667_boiler1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mUAfuw)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bz46Zw/4667b.jpg) (http://ibb.co/caBmZw)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dVxtEw/57_XXcabfloor1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dVxtEw)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/m4oN7G/57_XXcabfloor2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/m4oN7G)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hOaDEw/57_XXcabfloor3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hOaDEw)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dQHJEw/5t_XXbackheads.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dQHJEw)
The second of my GRS 8750 class kits (being completed in parallel with 4667) is to be built as 5786 in "as built" condition.
The most obvious difference between the early and late Lots is the cab but there are several other differences (many of which were erased by later modification to match the newer locos.).
1) As built, none of the pre-1942 locos were fitted with the external top-feed casing.
2) There were no steps fitted to the sides of the bunker.
3) The handrail on the leading edge of the cab opening was not fitted to the side sheet but to the extended end of the cab cut-out beading.
4) Cab doors and sliding shutters were not fitted.
5) The injector arrangement differs from the locos with the top-feed casing.
6) The "contractor-built" locos were fitted with riveted tanks (the Swindon-built tanks were welded).
7) The lubricators for the middle axle bearings were plainly visible ahead of the splasher.
8 ) The tank fillers (including those on the early Lots of locos of the 8750 type) were the older circular pattern, not the more modern oval type as fitted to the kit.
9) The tank saddle braces (the bits of inverted T-section which lie across the boiler and firebox on the kit) were flat section and not "T" .
10) The whistles were not fitted with shields and were operated by direct cable linkage to the whistle and not by internal steam valves.
11) The brake hangers and blocks are of an earlier pattern, quite different to the later (forged steel) pattern as supplied with the kit.
12) Position of the lamp irons which carry the spare lamps : Original Swindon drawing (and photos of early locos in original condition) show two lamp irons by front of the leading splasher on LHS. Photos of locos built in late 1930's and after, show two lamp irons on LHS between tool box and injector. In photos taken later, some locos (with either cab type) have three lamp irons in either of the positions previously mentioned!
That covers most (if not all) the visible differences between early 57XX locos and the later 8750 types but remember that there was a transition period during which 8750 locos (those with the Collett cab) were built with other features carried over from the earlier design and , similarly, many, but not all, of the earlier locos were gradually "updated" with all or some of the "improved" design details. All eventually received the bunker side steps and cab doors but other updates were "patchy" in their application....you need a dated photo if you want to get it absolutely right!
Reverting to the major surgery, which is the cab replacement, the plan is as follows.
1) Cut (from brass) a new cab front spectacle plate which stops just below where the tank top corners meet the cab side (dimensioned to fit between new brass cab sides).
2) Cut a cab rear spectacle plate which stops just below the bunker side sheets.
3) Cut two new cabside sheets which are full height at front and include the strip which carries the roof (the cab back is only as thick as the separate rear spectacle plate).
4) Cut a new roof from brass.
5) Cut away the roof, upper sections of cab (front and rear) and the entire forward section of the cab sides (reprofile the top forward corners of the bunker to match profile of new cab entrance).
6) "Slim down" the remaining (lower) section of resin cab front, which will attach to the boiler/tank unit, so the new brass cab sides sit at correct overall width.
Detailing :
Roof : Transverse sliding vent (brass sheet and angle) and rain strips (brass angle).
Cabsides: Rivets ; beading around opening from brass strip (including extension to locate leading handrail).
Cab rear : Spectacle bars, rivets, coal doors and brake handle recess.
Cab front : Spectacle surround, rivets, holes for whistle controls.
Bunker (resin retained with new profile) : Substitute half-round beading for the flat beading.
Attached photo shows the butchered resin cab and the only parts retained for incorporation into the new cab for 5786.
Livery Note: If you are building a loco with top-feed casing, it would never have been lettered "Great Western" (except preserved examples now living in a theme park world!) since the "GWR" branding (superseding the "shirtbutton" art deco totem) was in use by 1942, when the first locos were fitted. The 8750 locos built from 1942 onwards, until end of the war, were turned out in plain black livery, not green.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iP3vzw/5786cabparts1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iP3vzw)
WARNING : If you have already built your 57XX/8750 kit...and are perfectly happy with it.....now is the time to stop reading!!
*******************************************************************
Ever since I started working on this kit I have had that "something isn't quite right" feeling.... but as with the LMS 4F kit which I built a few years ago, I couldn't put my finger on it unti I got well into the build.
Well, when I started measuring up for the templates to mark out the replacement brass cab for 5786, it hit me. What isn't right and alters the "demeanour" of the model loco, is the curvature of the shoulders of the pannier tanks. The radius of all four tank shoulders is way too tight, not that far off being "square" and it alters the whole appearance of the loco.
It will have to be altered but the thickness of the resin casting is a limitation as the parts stand : It may be necessary to add material to the inner surfaces of the tank castings to provide sufficient depth to "round off" the shoulders to an acceptable profile.
It has to be done..... for me it cannot remain "as is", the whole thing looks too "boxy".
As soon as I have finished cutting the parts for the new cab, I will deal with the tanks.
More soon.
John.
There IS a reason I build almost everything...
regards
ralph
Indeed........ the two Panniers will definitely be my last GRS kits ....... "on the stocks" are brass GNR and GCR locos (scratchbuilt) plus a trio of (superior) LNWR brass etched locos...... from a well-known source.
With interest, I read the following in another model rail forum the other day .... if the writer is also a member of this forum, perhaps he will hold up his hand?
<quote> I built a 8750 ex G.W.R. Pannier in Gauge 3 as a commission for someone. The idea was to use a Garden rail kit as a starting point but to produce something with at least as much detail as you'd expect in a good 7mm model. I'm not sure what percentage of the kit was used in the end, but I did replace quite a few things with better scratch built items. The kit was a real mixed bag which reflected the different attitude of the garden rail community (of the time) which was very different to 'indoor' scale modellers. </quote>
I have the feeling, not a lot has changed, at least in certain quarters.
Regards,
John.
The good news is.....it was possible to re-profile the shoulders of the pannier tanks without breaking through the castings.
To do the eight shoulders (two locos) took a couple of hours and left me surrounded by a heap of resin shavings, etc. First I shaved with a knife, then used a diamond file to take off the "edges" and finally smoothed with fine emery.
It was not easy taking photos in artificial light to show the difference it has made : The end profile is more rounded but the biggest difference is the side elevation view : The light now reflecting off the curved shoulders has removed the "slab-sided" appearance which just didn't look right.
The new cab for 5786 is almost complete and then both the bodies will be detailed.
John.
A Tale (or Tails) of Two Panniers!
5786 has a new brass cab while 4667 has a modified resin cab.
Apart from the immediately obvious, the differences between the two types (as originally built) are the lack of bunker side steps on 5786 and the arrangement of the cab entrance leading hand rail, which is not attached to the cab side but stands in the cab entrance, supported at the upper end by an extension of the cab cutout beading.
One "odd" feature of the rear cab sheet of the early 57XX locos is the way in which the brake handle recess was positioned, such that the top LHS corner had to be "cropped" to avoid the rim of the spectacle! I have to ask ,"Why?"!
5786 still requires the bunker beading and handrails, etc. to be added to the sole remaining section of resin casting. The cab front is 100% brass (I decided against retaining the lower resin section, as mentioned in an earlier post). The brass used is 0.8mm thick and the rivets were produced by drilling to half the thickness of the brass (from the inside) and then using the Metalsmiths rivet press (the drilling removes any tendency for the area around the pressed rivets to distort, in the same manner as half-etching does with kits of thinner material).
One point to note (and an error I have observed on GRS made up kits in their publicity photos) is that the bunker side steps were on the LHS ONLY.....not both sides of the bunker. All locos were eventually fitted with these steps even where not an original build feature (similarly, all the cab hand rails were eventually altered to correspond to the later type).
Next to roll and detail the roof, which should be a fairly quick task.
More soon,
John.
P.S. I should have mentioned that the brake handle recesses were made from aluminium sheet.... the castings in the GRS kit are way too small.
The new brass cab for 5786 has been completed (still needs a thorough clean, as can be seen from photos.) and as soon as the beading, lamp irons and fire iron brackets have been fitted to the bunker section and the the boiler backhead fitted to the cab front, the two parts can be painted and assembled.
The cab backplate is fitted to the bunker coal plate by two 8BA screws/nuts and the cab front will be fitted into the rear of the tank casting.
More soon.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/b1kxgH/5786bunkercab1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/b1kxgH)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fcG9vc/5786bunkercab2.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fcG9vc)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/km8YMH/5786bunkercab3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/km8YMH)
Hi Jon,
What size of iron do you use? Also when attaching beading what's your method, do you tin it first? I'm looking at building my first etch brass kit so keen to get some tips thank you,
Simon
Hi Simon,
I used a 100W Antex which made light work of the 0.8mm brass components (which is quite a bit thicker than the average etched kit).
I tin the beading and the edges to which it is being attached and use either the iron or RSU (latter if beading needs to be pressed to stay flat/in contact during process .... also useful if attaching details in close proximity to an earlier joint).
Regards,
John.
As part of a concerted effort to clear my workspace of unfinished GRS kit models (so I can get on with the more interesting projects), the pair of 57XX panniers have taken centre stage. They now need just a few hours work to complete them. I selected 5786 and 4667 to form the basis of my models.
To assist anyone engaged in detailing one of these locos, the photos below show the differences in tank detailing between the two (5786 being Swindon-built, 1930 example and 4667 one of the later modernised design built 1943, both completed in "as-built" condition.
Although all mechanically similar and lumped together as the 57XX class, there were (as one might expect among the largest single class of loco ever built) a multitude of detail variations and permutations thereof.
Detailing is not clear-cut between the original and modernised designs, there being many Churchward-style features (e.g. Turnkey /screw-down tank fillers and a lack of bunker steps) which were included in the early Lots of the modernised 8750 series locos. The prominent top feed casings only appeared from 1940 onwards and were retro-fitted to many but by no means all, the earlier locos over time.
The two most obvious differences in my models I have mentioned above (top feed and tank fillers) but other subtle differences are the cross-section profile of the tank stays (flat on 5786 and T-section on 4667) and the type of steps fitted to the tank front.
If you want to simplify your own kit-build, I would suggest choosing a pre-1940 loco with the modernised Collett cab and the lever-type tank fillers and this will involve removal of the top-feed casing but considerably simplifies other detailing. You could also remove the modern tank fillers and fit the older turnkey type, since many early locos in the 8750 number series retained the older fittings.....check photos.
Whichever type of loco you select, it is worth "rounding-off" all four "shoulders" on the tanks. They are far too "sharp" on the resin casting as supplied. Filing/sanding them to a far more rounded profile "softens" the lighting effect on the tank sides and alters the demeanour of the loco.
If you do retain the top-feed, the pipework was enclosed in a steel pressing where it runs down the tank sides (just ahead of the cab) to the injectors on the running plate. The kit provide a section of styrene plastic tube to represent this but it is not only incorrect in cross section but you will have problems trying to bend it to match curvature of the tank shoulders..... it will simply snap..... although heating may help but I didn't bother. On 4667, I took a length of thick wall copper tube (3mm dia.) and bent it to match the curvature. Inserting a length of 13A ring main copper earth wire into the ends of the tube will prevent it from losing its circular shape and the wire can be pulled out after shaping. The face which is to be glued to the tank sides was filed flat, as were the sides, leaving just the front face rounded. At the bottom, I left a section of wire as a spigot the join to the injectors, while at the top, the core of the tube will accept the plastic-coated wire (supplied with the kit for the pipework) as a force-fit.
Photos of 5786
(https://i.ibb.co/3Nmmm38/5786-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Nmmm38)
(https://i.ibb.co/YygbbrY/5786-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YygbbrY)
(https://i.ibb.co/R6mzyGc/5786-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R6mzyGc)
Photos of 4667
(https://i.ibb.co/SmbgzGL/4667-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SmbgzGL)
(https://i.ibb.co/kDXYS5V/4667-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kDXYS5V)
(https://i.ibb.co/F4LdStQ/4667-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F4LdStQ)
57XX Variety : Cab Detail Variations.
Photos showing cab differences between early-build locos (as originally built) and later locos with the improved Collett cab.
Points to note :
Bunker side steps and accompanying grab rail (fitted only to LHS of loco).
Vertical cab entrance handrails.
Cab door on later locos.
Position of handbrake housing.
Number of fire iron rest brackets (early locos had just three, with middle one offset to left of centre).
Always check a photo of your chosen loco, since "improvements" to minor fittings were gradually introduced and did not coincide with the change to the new design of cab (i.e. some early locos with the new cabs lacked some of the improvements when new). Older locos were, over a long period, retro-fitted with updated fittings.
(https://i.ibb.co/vzKfZ11/5786lhs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vzKfZ11)
(https://i.ibb.co/KLvVF6F/4667lhs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KLvVF6F)
(https://i.ibb.co/YhNCDZ9/5786cabrhs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YhNCDZ9)
(https://i.ibb.co/FsmfG1z/4667rhs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FsmfG1z)
(https://i.ibb.co/MMRWkqt/5786cabback.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMRWkqt)
(https://i.ibb.co/VvwmpGY/4667cabback.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VvwmpGY)
(https://i.ibb.co/qWk0X3z/6786bunkerback.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qWk0X3z)
(https://i.ibb.co/b5tmVxV/4667bunkerback.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b5tmVxV)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jxdpj4s/back.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jxdpj4s)
(https://i.ibb.co/wzWNK0V/5786top.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzWNK0V)
(https://i.ibb.co/NW6v9kP/4667top.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NW6v9kP)
More holes than Gouda cheese!
You look at the running plate of your 57XX (as supplied with the GRS kit of the 8750 variant) and are grateful that the majority of holes have been laser cut in the steel, leaving just the lamp iron and sanding lever cross-shaft rivets to be drilled. It's an illusion..... a lot of the holes are IN THE WRONG PLACES!
There are 8 holes which need to be filled and re-positioned, in addition to the aforementioned rivet holes to be drilled.
The grab rails by the steps between the leading axles are too close to the edge and too close together, the sanding lever pivots and the holes locating the filler caps are very much displaced from their correct positions.
The photo below shows the redundant holes encircled in red with the newly-drilled holes close by.
(https://i.ibb.co/yq9MgSR/running-plate-holes.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yq9MgSR)
Incidentally, the reverser reach rod is neither mentioned in the instructions nor supplied with the kit, so you need to make your own and cut a slot in the running plate to mount the supporting crank.
There is a Swindon GA drawing in GWJ No8 which I have used in constructing these models. Incidentally, one detail variation which I have not seen mentioned anywhere is the position of the step between the leading axles. The Swindon drawing shows it considerably off-set towards the leading axle and photos of Swindon-built locos show it thus. However, photos of the contractor-built locos show it more centrally positioned between the leading axles. Ex-works (broadside) photos in photographic grey livery of Nos. 5700 and 6743 clearly show this. Of the "early cab" design, only Nos. 5750 to 5799 were built at Swindon.
If "Easy Build" suggests to you that all that will be required is superglue, a selection of small twist drills, screwdrivers and spanners plus some filler and emery paper , then you are living on a different planet to GRS! "Easy Build" is not a description any reasonable person would apply to this kit. You need only look back through this thread to appreciate that comment : Cutting the end off the steel motor shaft, and using a Forstner bit to drill out castings to provide clearance for the flywheel, cutting away the rear end of the tank casting to provide clearance for the motor are just a few of the traumatic moments an inexperienced builder will face.
Thankfully, the kit it is no longer being produced (the moulds are worn out) but I understand that a replacement (modified form) kit is being considered. I only hope that all my comments on the "Plastic Bugger" (not a tag which I bestowed upon the kit but one which is entirely appropriate) are taken on board if a new kit is eventually to be produced.
Coupling Rod dilemma.
One unsatisfactory aspect of the 57XX/8750 Pannier kits is the coupling rods. ALL 57XX pannier tanks had fish-belly pattern rods but the kit is supplied with parallel rods. This problem had been gnawing at me for some time and I was almost resigned to leaving them as they were.
I decided in the end to rectify by applying nickel silver overlays to the steel rods. As it happens, the task was made simpler when I remembered that I had discarded the fish-belly rods from the Dean Goods kit in favour of steel rods.
The Dean Goods rods (as supplied with the original batch of kits) were of a tri-fold nickel silver arrangement which I intensely disliked and had replaced with steel rods of the fluted parallel type (as were fitted to the final Lot of Dean Goods locos).
Fortunately, the Dean Goods has the same wheelbase as the 57XX and I was able to use the leftover parts (with some modification) and soldered them over the 57XX steel rods without removing from the chassis (using the monster 175W iron).
Before and after photos.
(https://i.ibb.co/JRgQpVW/crods1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRgQpVW)
(https://i.ibb.co/9rDLZD0/crods2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rDLZD0)
I have reached the stage where I am just adding the final few cosmetic items and thought it would be plain sailing from here on in. I had overlooked the provenance of this kit .... it still had a few nasty surprises up its sleeve!
The etch for the sanding lever gear (which is very prominent above the running plate on these locos) looked very good and I confidently detached and cleaned up the parts. The cross-shaft provided was much larger in diameter (around 2.5mm) than the mounting holes in the etches but it would not be possible to open out the etched holes.... they were too narrow to accommodate a 2.5mm hole.
Not a great problem, I simply selected a slightly smaller diameter rod from my stock box and used that. However, the distraction of the shaft diameter caused me to forget to check the Swindon GA drawing and photos and I merrily went ahead and soldered up the sanding gear. It was only after that I then checked the drawing and found the primary lever to be the wrong shape! Bugger! It took almost an hour of fiddly work to de-solder the gear from both locos, reshape the lever and refit.
This is just one more "defect" needed to be added to quite a long list of remedies necessary to be applied to this "Easy Build" kit.
Photos below show lever shape before (top) and after reshaping (below).
Has it yet played its Trump Card?
That "clang" you hear is whitemetal lumps hitting the bin!
Just when I thought I had finished making new bits, the "Plastic Buggers" play another Ace...... the sandboxes (both leading and trailing) are too small and of incorrect profile.
Patterns have been made and new resin boxes cast...... which leaves me wondering (with very little left to do to complete these locos), have these kits yet played their trump cards or is there more to come?
This is a kit which certainly "keeps giving"....... headaches that is!
Leading sandbox (whitemetal original with resin replacement)
(https://i.ibb.co/5jy0b4t/sbleading.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5jy0b4t)
(https://i.ibb.co/x5JZ1WR/sbleading2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x5JZ1WR)
Trailing sandbox with replacement.
(https://i.ibb.co/9wscZB6/sbtrailing.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9wscZB6)
More Bangs for your Bucks.....
Those "bangs" (or metallic clangs) are the whitemetal toolbox castings hitting the bin.
Well. it had to happen..... more patterns, moulds and resin castings to be made.
The tool boxes are the most prominent features mounted on the running plate and need to "look the part".
The GRS castings just don't "cut it"....they are nondescript hunks of metal.
They are the correct height ..... that's their sole redeeming feature : Everything else is either too short, in the wrong place or missing altogether!
Below are the original casting and the pattern for the replacements, dimensions taken from the Swindon GA.
Look at the photo on the cover of the GRS instruction booklet and study the injector.
Now look at a photo of a "real" 57XX.....there is a passing resemblance.
The model photo reveals thin spindly pipework and a casting which has been distorted/bent/stretched to fit the holes provided in the running plate and tank underside.
The whitemetal casting is very flimsy in the area of the spindly pipe (in fact mine broke when trying to straighten a "wonky" example).
The only solution is to remove the "U" shaped pipe (which connects tank to injector) and replace with a section of thicker metal pipe or rod. Save the flanged joint and drill through, so it can be threaded over the new pipework. Shape the new pipe so the completed injector will actually fit into the hole in the tank, without distortion. Note also (see my comparative photos below) that the valve operating rod (not yet fitted), enters the upper valve cylinder from the cab and that the valve casting is mounted "wrong way round" as supplied.
The thick whitemetal pipe links to the tank-top pipework on a loco with external top feed but runs straight into the cab on locos without that pattern of top feed.
The new section of copper pipe has also had the strengthening flanges added along its length using strips of thin plastic card.
John,
I do scratch building. To me this is a relaxing hobby for someone with a bad heart and dodgy eyesight. Reading this - kit building should come with a health warning(!)
Regards
Ralph
QuoteReading this - kit building should come with a health warning(!)
Calling these "Easy Build" kits should be recognised by the UN as a crime against humanity.....or at very least a breach of the Trade Descriptions Act!
As soon as this pair of "Plastic Buggers" is off the workbench, it will be back to the relative relaxation of "metal bashing".... LNWR, GNR and GCR style!
The GWR is not my favourite railway but has become a necessity as a consequence of the Monkton Priors project (yes, it is still alive....just)!
Regards,
John..
Remember Victor Meldrew (Richard Wilson/"One Foot in the Grave") and his popular phrase, the exclamation, "I don't believe it!", well I am almost too flabbergasted to even get that out.
One curiosity of the photo of the completed 8750 on the cover of the GRS instruction booklet is that the leading sandboxes have not been fitted. I know all the holes for the cranks and fillers are in the wrong places (I have moved them) but that wouldn't prevent the boxes being attached, as supplied.
Having fitted my new resin sandboxes of the correct shape to the running plate, I test fitted to the chassis, the buffer planks and buffers being integral with the chassis and not fitted to the running plate.
It soon became pretty obvious why the sandboxes are missing from the GRS-built model...... when the buffer heads are depressed, the tail end screw strikes the sandboxes and (if attached with cyano/superglue as suggested)would soon knock them off in a hard shunt. If you look at photo "13" in the build sheet it is pretty obvious there is insufficient clearance for the buffers to depress fully.
No mention of the problem in the instructions nor of the obvious solution....mark and drill a recess in the boxes to accommodate the extended screw head when the buffers are fully depressed. The hole will not be visible once the model has been assembled.
When is a kit not a kit? When it is just a box of bits which don't fit together. When is an "Easy Build" kit not easy-to-build? When it has been designed by GRS.
Below:
6mm dia. holes in leading sandboxes to clear compressed buffers
Reference photos. for correct positioning of sandbox operating crank and filler cap.
The holes provided in the laser cut running plate are well away from the correct positions....if it were the "real thing", your sand would fall straight from the filler onto the track and the operating spindle would be dangling in thin air! Photos show items relocated to correct positions as per Swindon GA drawing.
BTW : The rivet detail on the hanging bars (valance) is not present on the etches as supplied. I marked positions on rear of etch, part-drilled shallow impression and then used "MetalSmith's"rivet punch.
Nihil Desperandum!
The quality (or lack thereof) inherent in the GRS whitemetal castings can be a cause for despair, unless you are prepared to undertake some surgery.
In the case of the pannier tank supports, this comes in the form of a bone graft!
The malformed items (seen in the first photo) have (second photo) had the defective sections cut and filed away and strips of whitemetal have been cut from "scrap box" castings and soldered into the gaps (third photo).
The grafts were cut oversize and filed/sanded to profile after soldering.
The whole process took around 15 minutes and is not difficult but you will require a temperature adjustable iron, Carr's Green Label flux (or equivalent) and low melt solder.
A tip : If you use quite a lot of low-melt solder, don't buy those tiny (expensive) strips, go to a casting supplies merchant (e.g. Tiranti) and buy in bulk....it is listed as "Woods metal" at about one-fifth of the "model shop" price (1kg for 40GBP as against approx. 200GBP if bought in small strips).
One of two : GWR 57XX / 8750 class.
After a very long delay (see previous posts and the reasons why these kits have taken so long will be obvious) 4667 and 5786 have been completed!
Today we have 4667, which rolled off the line at Swindon in the middle of WW2 (December 1943) and was finished in the all-black livery which, at that time, applied to all classes of loco, other than Kings and Castles, which were permitted to be re-painted in full GWR pre-war green livery. The supply of green pigment was limited, since it was required for military equipment.
A much "bashed about" GRS kit forms the basis (some mods to make the "easy build" kit actually fit together and more to correct faulty/poor/ inadequate detailing).
If you are building a 57XX or 8750 in GWR condition, one point to note is the route restriction disc : The colour should be blue (the yellow discs supplied on the GRS transfer sheet apply only after 1950, when BR eased the restriction to yellow). The reason for the easing relates to "hammer blow" tests carried out and, although the axle loading was within the GWR blue classification, the very light hammer blow permitted the easing to yellow.
The (non-identical) twin to 4667 is No.5786, built January 1930: The paintwork is still hardening and more on that loco in a day or two.
John.
(https://i.ibb.co/GQ34hqx/DSCNw4023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GQ34hqx)
(https://i.ibb.co/1fVMSKX/DSCNw4025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1fVMSKX)
(https://i.ibb.co/jDrwpsj/DSCNw4027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jDrwpsj)
(https://i.ibb.co/z6jfL1F/DSCNw4024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6jfL1F)
(https://i.ibb.co/M9T5CNv/DSCNw4028.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M9T5CNv)
5786, which rolled off the line at Swindon in January 1930, is of the original 57XX design and is modelled in 1930 original condition.
Another much altered GRS kit forms the basis, with the most immediately obvious difference being the new brass cab.
There are numerous other differences in detailing (e.g the tank fillers, tank strapping and the lubricators by the middle splashers).
These earlier 57XX locos were later gradually given updated fittings (as applied to newer built locos), examples being the cab handrails, cast steel brake hangers and bunker steps, which can be seen by comparing with the model of 4667.
Again note the BLUE route restriction disc, in this case located high on the cab side, the standard position until WW2, when the discs were relocated to be above the numberplate, to aid identification under "blackout" conditions.
John.
(https://i.ibb.co/FhysX97/DSCNw4041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FhysX97)
(https://i.ibb.co/YL9qfCm/DSCNw4046.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YL9qfCm)
(https://i.ibb.co/XFkydhQ/DSCNw4032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XFkydhQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/C6dFT8y/DSCNw4043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6dFT8y)
(https://i.ibb.co/NTBqZf9/DSCNw4038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NTBqZf9)
P.S. Before anyone says they can't see any lubricators, here is a blow up showing just ahead of centre splasher, set well back (they are on both sides).
John
Being a GWR man I much prefer your later version of the pannier tank, but there again you can't have too many pannier tanks.
The GWR stud must be quite large now!
Mike
QuoteThe GWR stud must be quite large now!
Currently operational GWR locos are:-
1364 (1361 Class 0-6-0ST)
2257 (2251 Class 0-6-0 Collett Goods)
2568 (2301 Class 0-6-0 Dean Goods)
3406 "Calcutta" (Bulldog Class 4-4-0)
4667 (8750 Class 0-6-0PT)
4817 (Collett 48XX Class 0-4-2T)
5786 (57XX Class 0-6-0PT)
No.8 (Gloucester RCW Diesel Railcar)
"On the stocks"....waiting on Slaters for the wheels..... is a 29XX "Saint" Class 4-6-0.....tender completed and loco mainframes ready for assembly.
For the future?
A Large Prairie tank (Churchward 31XX class), 30XX class (ex-R.O.D. Robinson 2-8-0) and a 43XX Mogul.....that's the GWR wish list!
Currently working on a trio of LNWR Coal Tanks and a pair of LNER (ex-GC) A5 4-6-2T are to follow, so the GWR stud is not likely to expand for a while yet!
Regards,
John.
And what do you do in your spare time?
and he still claims not to be a GWR modeler at all!
Quoteand he still claims not to be a GWR modeler at all!
My non-GWR locos do outnumber the GWR!
5 x LMS, 5 x LNER plus two "industrials" (the "Worthington" Bagnall 0-4-0ST and "Plantagenet", the Sentinel).
John.