BR Diesel Class 44/45/46 Loco Design Co.

[MikeWilliams]

It does indeed Dave.  Very nice.

Mike

[Geoff Nicholls]

When you sprayed subsequent areas of the loco, what do you use to mask the first colour? I have very limited experience of spraying techniques, and would be worried the masking tape would pull off he paint, when removed.

[AllWight]

You would use a low tac tape that would create a clean seal to the existing surface and when removed you will be left with a clean sharp line with no spiders legs.

Mark

[454]

Yes Mark I did use low tac tape along the roof line, the only places where I had to use a touch up brush were on curvy bits where the tape pulled straight off the intended line slightly.

Dave
454

[454]

Performance report update of Peak called "Kinder Scout"

Went to Ampthill today to get Brit steam tested & whilst it was quiet with other huddling together around water pumps & gauges the Peak was coupled to Alan's BR Mk1 rake of 6 coaches.

With such a heavy load & a tight coupling a touch of reverse to slacken the coupling & a quick forward snatch got the show on the road & a steady acceleration up to a non-invigorating shunting speed was achieved. After the first circuit 2 coaches were detached & placed in the bay. Peak shunts nicely. Then coupled back to the remaining 4 coaches. These it pulled away with ease. The speed was more respectable but not express.  Three coaches on my 12 feet rad home circuit is quite pleasing.

Had another run later in the day with goods vehicles & this was realistic.

The performance could have been limited by current limiting from the battery pack ( AA @ 14.4Volts @ 2.3Amp Hour). So the experiment will continue over the next week or so using higher capacity cells.

The duration of running time on a single pack of fully charged batteries is about one hour of play. Which realistically is as much as you could expect with a steam loco between servicing. This I had planned for & for extended play a tired cell pack would be swapped out with another fully charged cell pack. Very easy to do. I guess it is the equivalent in a steamer of filling up with water & charging the tender with more coal or gas.

The quest for an express battery electric hauler continues.

Dave
454

[AllWight]

Hi Dave

You can safely up the cells from 12 to 16 and you would be within the working tolerances of the Mach 5. My 02's and the class 73 all have 16 AA cells. That should improve top end speed performance. 

Mark

[454]

Mark,

The decision is a choice between upping the Volts. Or, upping the Amps.

The main thing that concerns me is the capability of the cells to deliver Amps if the demand from the 6 motors in terms of load require beyond what is reasonable from a single bank of AA cells at a voltage.

Theory has it that the AA cell capacity at 2.3Amp Hour could be inadequate at 14.4 Volts if another identical pack was placed in parallel then the capacity would be 4.6 Amp Hour.

If Volts raised using more cells in series then we still have a maximum current drain of 2.3Amp Hour whatever the volts used.

Experiment 1
Will remove the 19.2 Volt 2.3Amp Hour pack from the GWR Avonside 0-4-0T & give that a try in the Peak.

Experiment 2
Add another 14.4V pack in parallel to make a 4.6Amp Hour pack.

The result of the experiment will determine which way to design the power pack. If both fail to deliver satisfactory results then my conclusion could be that the choice of motors needs to be reviewed.

The ESC Electronize has a genuine 15 Amp capacity up to 24 Volts so I cannot imagine that this would ever be challenged.

If anybody has any other ideas they will be welcome as this could affect the future designs for modern traction that seems to be becoming of interest.

These experiments will be carried out & whatever configuration choice selected will be used at the next GTG.

Dave
454

[Peaky 556]

Dave
For some reason your power pack is not being asked to deliver much current.  If you think about the pack capacity of 2.3Ah, and you have playtime of around one hour, then the obvious conclusion is that you are generally draining less than 2A from the pack.  If you have six current hungry motors that are struggling to bring a train up to speed, and they are only drawing something less than 1/2A each, then there are a couple of suggestions as to what may be wrong:
1. You have the motors wired in series instead of parallel, or maybe two parallel circuits of three in series;, or
2. There is a bad dry joint in the wiring from the battery pack, or
3. You have used much too fine a wire size for connecting it all together.

If all motors were in parallel and the rest of the circuit giving the desired low resistance, that pack of yours should get rather warm, deliver at least 10A and only last ten minutes!

A few things to think about anyway!  Good luck

Cheers, Tim

[454]

Hi Tim,

1) Motors definitely wired in parallel. Checked that wheels rotate in same direction. No.1 bogie forward & No.2 bogie wired in reverse of bogie No.1.
2) No dry joints, I have inspected them recently.
3) Wire size is same gauge as that from the ESC & that is rated at 15 amps.
4) Cell Pack does not get warm.
5) Motors do no get warm, finger sensing only.

I think that the motors would be good for a railcar bogie not a "mainline 95 mph capable 6 coach hauler" loco.

My plan is to go ahead with the previously stated experiments & consider motor re-selection & re-design if tests fail.
The future of the motors is quite good, I see no reason why they should not be used in a smaller loco with less pretentious aspirations of performance.

Dave
454

[Peaky 556]

OK Dave, having now discovered more details of your motors I fear there is no more oomph to be had.  They appear to be low-power devices that only draw about 1/4 A when running at their best efficiency.  Rather than "current hungry" motors they seem more suited to accessory drive than traction.

This is only a drawn power of around 15 to 20W with all six at full chat.  By way of comparison I have established from this community that about 6A at 12V is a typical current draw for a reasonably sized battery G3 loco, and that makes over 70W.  On that basis I have been planning to supply about 80W electrical output for traction on my live combustion 'Peak'.  My problem will be finding smallish motors that will relish that much power... 

Short of adding two extra motors to power the pony trucks you could check that all your coaches have ballraces in the axles to help it go faster, or streamline the nose like an APT......

It is a lovely model though, so congrats and enjoy...
Tim

[Doddy]

45 137 Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regiment (T.A.)

And myself now makes four? Yes! I just registered for the forum and have sent my application form off for full membership of the G3S. I also have an interest in the Peak project and have already been in touch with two of the other three guys who are building and posting here.

I have just ordered the Chris Barron Drawings and will also be ordering the laser cut bogie metalwork very soon. Whilst being scenically minded, I also want to be able to attend GTG rituals and run the loco with a fair load in tow. Anybody know what wagons were used at the Park Royal Guinness works? 

So a combination of strength and beauty with enough detail without the loco becoming a long term museum quality build. Although I am beginning to think that is exactly what will happen anyway - the 'long term build' bit that is.

With careful advice, I have already decided that the bogies and running gear will take priority, that will include the traction motors, suspension, bogie articulation, battery, power controller, and digital sound system.

It is probably my experience with the later that I can bring experience to the table in that I have been recording locomotives for over seven years now and have finally found a digital sampler board that can take Gb's of .wav files and play them at CD quality. I am just waiting for my shipment to arrive and testing to start to integrate that board with my RC system. Why not other commercial sound products?, well they don't do this the way I want it to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gri4Siou__c

The sampler board allows all the button pushing to be automated and then the Peak's power controller output follows the engine sound controlled by the RC throttle  - motion should always follow the sound - not the other way around like almost all the other sound cards mode of operation.



45 137? Well I used to live in Hertfordshire and saw this loco many times during visits to St Pancras and Luton during the 1970's. The evocative smell of diesel fumes at St Pancras with Peaks crawling under the train shed and back out again, and the rush of adrenaline with Peaks at the head of non-stop expresses leaning inwards towards me as they rushed through Luton stations banked fast lines at 90MPH

Let's see how we get on, there is a long way to go.

Yours Sincerely.

Robert 'Doddy' Sumsion
Abingdon-upon-Thames

[cabbage]

Welcome to the madness! I am the third owner of these CB plans for the Peak... I have not begun mine -but I have studied the annotations by the two previous owners with interest. When you get the plans you will be alarmed by the strange mix of metric sizes and imperial/BA/wire number drills. I have gone over the plans and this can all be done with a metric (fine) tap and die set.

The precious metal bushed motors (941?) specified in the plans are the ones to go for -for ease of assembly. I am going to use a different motor gearbox combination. For obvious reasons I cannot comment on the sound quality but Dave uses an Electronize ESC although I will probably use a Dimension Engineering one. The power for the locos  varies between: NiMH at 15V, SLA at 12V, and a twin banked glow engines with Dynostarter... Motive power varies from 6 type 941 motors, 12 pump motors, and 2 wheel chair motors.

One thing we have all commentated on the plans was "Well I wouldn't do it like that...."

The three of us (now four) look forward to running together on the project. If you like I will include you on our circle of e-mails?  Personal debate between the three of us at the moment concerns the front pony truck. As specified in the plans it is a Bissel truck -in reality it did not connect to the three drivers at all and was mounted from the buffer beam end by "the trapezoidal link".

The three of us are in the Derby area. Dave has the only completed one (Kinder Scout) , Tim has a bogie, (for Snowden), and I have a lot of ideas, (for Ixion) and the only track capable of them high speed running!

regards

ralph

[Peaky 556]

Welcome Doddy, your views on building these beasts will be great to add to the melting pot.  My own progress is slow, very slow, and I cannot take credit yet for having a completed 'Snowdon' bogie, as Ralph suggested.
Instead I have turned seven of the eight wheels, and have components for the motive power, gearing, power transmission, bogie pivot bearing and axle ballraces.  My first attempt at an axle has been a failure, so the plan is next to slim down that drive axle and turn it into the pony truck axle, and make three more drive axles!
Next to get attention will be axle boxes, if I can find a source locally for 7/8" square brass.
My loose plan is to get it all running before year end and submit an article on the bogie design and construction to the society mag.
I have a BR GA drawing which provides a lot of useful info, also one of the brake system within the bogie, and Dave has turned up some more details within the bogie.  I also have some BR drawings on order through the HMRS, based at Butterley in Derbyshire.  These are going to be quite expensive at £19 per sheet.  Mine is not going to be highly detailed, but there are a few fundamentals I would like to get right!  Things like wheelbases and wheel diameters fall into this category, but for some mystifying reason the C Barron drawings get these wrong.
Now we have four keen players on the 'Peak' front, and a geographical split, I would suggest that a good deal of the correspondence we are generally having privately is now posted on the forum instead?  I don't know what John will think of that, the extra moderation needed due to the sheer volume might just slow down his relentless march to having the greatest garden railway in the East!
A further thought, there are huge numbers of photos of Peaks, and a couple in preservation (mostly in Derbyshire) and so original drawings , whilst nice to have, are not really essential.

Welcome again
Cheers, Tim

[John Candy]

I don't know what John will think of that, the extra moderation needed due to the sheer volume might just slow down his relentless march to having the greatest garden railway in the East!

I don't mind ....... it won't cause me any problems with "moderation" (I can leave that to Mike)!

Have laid another 120ft of track this week (another 2240 sleepers have just arrived this morning from Cliff) .... update on progress will follow soon.

Regards,
John.

[cabbage]

The problem with the bogies as laid out in the CB plans is that they will not really take the small radius curves that the original three builders have. I don't know what you are using for a curve radius Doddy... Dave uses 3.6m, I use 3.3m, Tim is planning on using 2.4m. The required "end float" for the axles based on their spacing and the radius is quite easy to calculate, the main question is -which axles?

I am going to float axle 3 and have axles 1+2 rigid. This will leave me with a more "flexible" bogie but (I suspect) much more prone to crabbing along the straights. Tim is going to float 1 + 3  with 2 rigid (as that's where his drive bevel is) and I believe Dave has 1 + 3 rigid and floats 2. Neither of the other two have gauge widened curves and transitional straights as I do. However despite the hassle of doing it this way, Dave's Brittania travelled up and down my curves with ease -despite the fact that they were "too tight"...

The size of the wheels used is puzzling. I can only reason that by giving the loco smaller wheels CB could make it more "agile" around the curves(?) I am going to use BR std 45 inch drivers and 39 inch ponies -then reset the front buffer beam to the correct G3S height.

As to complying with the plans as drawn up by CB (we have all used them as a starting place to begin from) -but each of the models will have the individual stamp of their builders on it!

regards

ralph