Early LSWR Horsebox

[Jon Nazareth]

Does anyone know of a drawing of an early, C1850ish, LSWR horsebox?  I want to scratch build a model but I can't find an early drawing of one.  I've looked on the HMRS website and carried out a Google search but, nothing in either case.  I have Vol.1 of the LSWR carriage book but, nothing there either.

Jon

[John Candy]

Have you tried the South Western Circle?

I suspect you may draw a blank, since the earliest they list in their drawings catalogue is

SWC/MFP/027

A0

(1"-1')

B

Horsebox. (Probably 16' c.1884, no dims.)

?

D

see https://www.lswr.org/services/drawings/goods-stock.html?start=40

Regards,
John.

[Jon Nazareth]

John
Thanks for replying.  Yes, 1884 is a bit late for me.  I was a member of the South Western Circle once but cancelled my subscription.

Jon

[MikeWilliams]

LNWR 1868 no good?  It has a Groom's compartment though.  14ft 6in long, with pictures of grounded bodies too.

Mike

[Doddy]

SR ex-LSWR Horseboxe drawings, albeit with the later SR metal paneling.

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/378-sr-lswr-horse-box#close

Apparently Peter Tatlow has original LSWR Horsebox drawings of an 18' 6" pre-grouping horsebox in his book.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Historic-Carriage-Drawings-Vol-Non-Passenger/dp/1899816097

https://railroadtreasures.com/cdn/shop/products/10_6518cdc4-b79b-4c36-abfa-1c098b2e95c0_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1675644518

[Nick]

Jon,

Weddell's LSWR Carriages Volume 3, Non-Passenger Carriage Stock (Kestrel Railway Books, ISBN 09544855955) has drawings of 1861 14ft 2in, 1863 14ft 2in, 1877 15ft 6in, and other, later, horseboxes.

Nick

[Jon Nazareth]

Mike
Thanks for the offer but 1868 too late.

Nick
I'm looking for one without the groom's room.  Do you now if the LSWR version of 1861 is without the groom's section?

Jon

[Nick]

I'm afraid that all the drawings in that book have groom's compartments. Weddell, noting that horses are nervous creatures and discussing their travel requirements, says "It is also desirable for grooms to be able to travel where they can keep an eye on their charges". That suggests that most if not all horseboxes of that era would have had groom's compartments, though of course that isn't conclusive evidence.

Nick

[MikeWilliams]

Know this isn't LSWR but as a guide the LNWR directed in 1870 that all new horseboxes must have a compartment for the Groom, but in reality most had them from May 1861.  I imagine the LSWR would be similar period.

Mike

[Jon Nazareth]

Mike
I think that you are most probably right which is a shame for me. 

Jon

[Jon Nazareth]

I have found these two though.  They aren't LSWR which is a pity.

Jon

[John Branch]

Very pretty!  It deserves to me modelled anyhow (what would pull it?).  Not sure that the horse would enjoy the trip with no brakes and a very slack coupling arrangement.

I presume the 2 boxes at the ends were for hounds (or hay).

tally ho!
John

[MikeWilliams]

Of all the coaching stock you could model, a horsebox has the most variety.  I don't believe horses would have been transhipped, so horseboxes from the originating company would have run all over the country.  It might even be that "foreign" horseboxes would be more likely than "home" horseboxes.

For a race meeting there would be a whole variety of them arriving in trains.  Were there any big racecourses on the LSWR?

And that one looks particlarly difficult to model Jon - right up your street!

Mike

[Doddy]

Were there any big racecourses on the LSWR?

Yes! Quite a few of the London based Racecourses were located near the local LSWR station of each racecourse.

• Kempton Park (LSWR) - Kempton Park (Racecourse) Station
• Tattenham Corner (SER)
• Epsom Downs (LBSCR) - Epsom Town Station
• Sandown Park (LSWR) - Esher Station
• Ascot (LSWR)
• Royal Windsor (LSWR) - Windsor and Eton Riverside Station
• Newbury (GWR)
• Lingfield (LBSCR)
• Brighton (LBSCR)

[Jon Nazareth]

Just is case anyone has missed it, the photos above show two different horseboxes.  One with the curved ends/sides and the other very angular.  They both have their challenges from a scratch build point of view and I've not made up my mind as to which one to have a go at as yet.  The one with the curved ends will need a drawing made up as, I believe, this picture is the only evidence of this particular box.  The other, I have found drawings of in the book, 19th Century Railway Drawings by Alan Prior. 
A lot of food for thought.

Jon