Carriage and wagon wheels

[IanT]

Returning to the original thread (my apologies for dragging it off at a tangent) - I've just had a 'package' of stuff from Richard Toplis for an advert for the December Newsletter.

I've not looked at the CD supplied yet but amongst the photos there is one of two types of wagon & carriage wheels (pairs on axle) and these are described as;

"3' 9" (50.5mm dia) stainless steel wheels, 10 spoke or disc with spigot/axle for wagon & coaches".

They are priced at 32 pounds per pair. The 'disc' wheel has the two lifting holes mentioned by Ian earlier. Details will be in the December Newsletter - but this may address part of the problem originally raised.

Regards,

IanT

[John Candy]

3ft 9ins seems an unusual choice of wheel size.
Any indication of what prototypes they may suit?

I thought majority of carriage wheels were in the region of 3ft 7ins, give or take a bit.

Is that 32GBP per pair of wheels on a single axle or for 4 wheels on 2 axles?

John.

[IanT]

That's 32 GBP per axle John - and I've still not got around to looking at the CD as yet.

[John Candy]

Blimey.....that's 128GBP just for the wheels on a bogie vehicle!

Think I'll stick with Slaters at circa 20GBP for 4 axles.

John.

[MikeWilliams]

Trainvain,

You seem to have started this thread and also have the answer with Francis Leach.  Any success?

Mike

[Traininvain]

Have tried to contact him but apparently he's renovating a bungalow! He has already done drawings though for another project, so don't think there would be a problem. Will report back.

[MikeWilliams]

Looking back at this thread, six years ago there was interest in having 3-hole wagon wheels produced by CNC turning from solid steel bar.

Ian was sourcing a drawing and Andy offered to do a new one.

Did anything more happen?  The availability of well made steel wheels correctly shaped and detailed would I think help promote our scale.

Mike

[Andy B]

Mike,
No drawing ever came my way - and to be honest I had forgotten about the whole discussion!
However, I have today made an inquiry to get hold of the wheel drawing for Mk1 carriages. I also have a manufacturer in mind who I have spoken to previously and said they would be interested in doing some G3 parts.
Will report back asap - but have a holiday, return to work and a funeral all in the next 3 weeks, so don't hold your breath!

Andy

[unklian]

Perhaps someone should ask the new Brandbright management if they are going to reintroduce the steel wheels they used to sell ?

[hornbeam]

Looking at the site none of their own brand wheels are in stock yet, I heard when they retired so did the supplier. Worth asking and perhaps see if they would look at doing the gauge 3 range again.

I suspect at the moment they will concentrate on introducing the best sellers first, and I imagine that's a big task.

Simon.

[Andy B]

Step 1 achieved - I now have BR carriage wheel drawings!

2 questions for those who might be interested in actually purchasing some wheels:
1) Insulated or uninsulated?
How many people are running 2-R electric propulsion in G3?
Uninsulated wheels should be cheaper and have better control of run-out - and are fine for steam / battery propulsion.

2) Profiled on the back as well as the front face?
I would estimate that wheels that are profiled on both faces could cost up to twice that of those with only one profiled face (due to second machining operation and tricky work holding. How many people would potentially be prepared to pay a premium for the extra profile (let's assume a 'base' price similar to those from a well-known Derbyshire manufacturer to start with)?

Once I have some feedback on the above, I'll start talking to potential suppliers.

Andy

[Traininvain]

Hi Andy

To answer your questions:

1. Uninsulated please for the reasons you state (same as Brandbright)

2. Profiled on back as well would be good, but  to keep price down, the profile could be flat - i.e. a flat even cut between the tyre and the hub if you follow me. Also, the 2 small lifting holes.

Would also be useful to consider a cast whitemetal insert to turn them into Mansell wheels. I have such an insert but no idea where it came from - possibly Walsall or Brandbright? But this could be done later.

cheers

Ian

[Andy B]

Ian,

Do you have a reference for the 2 lifting holes (to which you have referred several times)?

The drawings I have are:
SC/DN 21037 - originally dated 1955 "Wheel and axle for roller bearing axleboxes for Steam Stock Vehicles". This shows 4 holes, 2" dia on 1' 1-1/4" radius. 3'-6" diameter on tread.

SC/SW/1 - Originally dated 1949 "Carriage Wheel and Axle 9" x 4 5/8" Journals". This shows no holes. 3'6" diameter on tread. Wheel section profile is the same as the above drawing.

SC/SW/23 - Originally dated 1949 "Carriage Wheel and Axle 10" x 5" Journals". This shows no holes, but has a revision note dated 1969 saying '2" diameter holes in wheel centre deleted'. I cannot tell how many holes it had originally.  3'6" diameter on tread. Wheel section profile is slightly different to the above 2 drawings.

SC/SW/51 - Originally dated 1950 "Carriage Wheel Centre 10" x 5" Journals. This is the same profile as SC/SW/23, and shows 4 holes, same diameter and radius as on SC/DN 21037.

SC/ES 14036 - originally dated 1964 "Markings on Carriage Wheels and Axles". This shows 2 holes, but they are not dimensioned as the drawing is to show markings only.

Given the variation, it might be best to supply them plain and people can drill their own 2- or 4-holes of they wish - it would only need a very simple jig to be made.

Andy

[Traininvain]

Andy

I have no reference I can find just now but you're right, a simple jig would suffice

Ian

[Andy B]

Had a reply back from my 'expert' source:
"I was told they were introduced along with (some but apparently not all) tyre turning lathes in main works specifically those that required a hole for a drive dog  that turned the wheel whilst cutting the finished tyre profile.  Certainly, they were no longer to be supplied on new carriage wheel centres from circa 1968 - I assume most of the "drive dog" lathes had gone by then - but the decision to abandon them altogether was as a result of BR dynamically balancing the wheelsets (judging by the date) for the introduction of high-speed running - the works were finding that in some instances getting the wheel in balance meant fitting a balance weight just where one of the 2" holes happened to be!"

So we'll go with no holes, and people can add their own if they like.
Andy