Having held a long time desire to build a rake of BR Mk 1 coaches, but not having the knowledge on matters like: where drawings can be found, what sort of couplings to use, and what best way to represent the bogie frames, I wonder if there is anyone out there with this knowledge who would consider joining me in a private venture to build a couple of rakes for ourselves?
Tim
Quote from: Peaky 556 on Aug 31 2016 22:15
Having held a long time desire to build a rake of BR Mk 1 coaches, but not having the knowledge on matters like: where drawings can be found, what sort of couplings to use, and what best way to represent the bogie frames, I wonder if there is anyone out there with this knowledge who would consider joining me in a private venture to build a couple of rakes for ourselves?
Tim
Tim,
The best reference for drawings that I can recommend is that of the former Doug Hewson Models now run by his son
Simon Hewson as
The Steam Workshop. His catalogue is here - http://the-hewsons.webs.com/CAT16%202016_b.pdf
General Arrangement Drawings are available for the following MKI coaches:-
- TSO Tourist Second Open £12
- CK Corridor Composite £12
- BSO Brake Second Open £12
- BG Gangwayed Full Brake £12
- BCK Brake Corridor Composite £12
- SK Corridor Second £12
- RF Restaurant First £12
- BSK Brake Second Corridor £12
- MKI Standard Details Pt1 £12
- MKI Standard Details Pt2 £12
- BR1 Riveted Bogie Drawing £12
- BR1 Riveted Bogie Detail £12
- MKI Underframe Drawing £12
- Commonwealth Bogie Drawing Set £36
A whitemetal Riveted MKI bogie sideframe is already available from Wallsall Models. http://www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk/product.php/mark_1_coach_bogie_side/?k=:::6405206
Either way, please count me in for this project.
Robert 'Doddy' Sumsion
Abingdon-on-Thames
PS: Simon 'might' be persuaded to consider an order for him to produce his laser cut coach sides in G3 scale as he already does them for 5" gauge - as per the drawings. 8)
Good Morning Gents
I have a rake of 7 BR Mk 1 and Bulleid coaches available. These are the completed coaches less underframe and bogies, it is a simple job to finish them. They are brand new in boxes and would give you a great head start in your project.
Regards
Phil
Thanks Bob and Phil, I shall be looking into the options. Right now I need to attend work, but this eve is free!
Regards, Tim
The approach I'd like to take is one that would result in batches of coaches that are not detailed scale models, but ones that have the right length, bulk, window shapes, door outlines,
Quote from: Peaky 556 on Sep 01 2016 10:07
Thanks Bob and Phil, I shall be looking into the options. Right now I need to attend work, but this eve is free!
Regards, Tim
symbolic corridor connections etc, but would be more at the "cheap and cheerful" end of the specification scale. If parts can be bought then so much the better, and wheels and bogie frame castings are certainly available. I have not located any oval buffers or suitable couplings yet. Bodies I would envisage laser cut from various ply thicknesses, and rooves probably removable for later additions of trim and people. Yes there might be some roofline gaps here and there, and no probably no underframe dynamos and detail, but from ten feet away and when on the move they would still be undeniably Mk1s.
I'd hazard a guess that this approach won't gel with you Bob, and also that your detailed bodies are going to be worth and arm and a leg Phil, so I am still looking for a partner in this project. Anyone tempted?
Regards, Tim
Quote from: Peaky 556 on Sep 01 2016 22:10
The approach I'd like to take is one that would result in batches of coaches that are not detailed scale models, but ones that have the right length, bulk, window shapes, door outlines, symbolic corridor connections etc, but would be more at the "cheap and cheerful" end of the specification scale.
I'd hazard a guess that this approach won't gel with you Bob
Doesn't look like it. ???
Quote from: Peaky 556 on Sep 01 2016 22:10
... coaches that are not detailed scale models, but ones that have the right length, bulk, window shapes, door outlines, symbolic corridor connections etc, but would be more at the "cheap and cheerful" end of the specification scale.
Tim,
You've answered one question that was in my mind, following your initial post.
On the basis you have outlined, I'm sure there is sufficient detail to be extracted from what is freely available on the web - diagrams, photos, etc - combined with a visit to a local preserved railway that uses Mk1s, armed with a tape measure!. Without meaning to sound harsh, I don't think it is worth the effort of trawling through works drawings for what you want to achieve.
Price-wise, have you done a basic costing against Curlew Coaches R-T-R products? (http://www.curlewcoaches.co.uk/ (http://www.curlewcoaches.co.uk/))
What sort of bogies do you want - original or Commonwealth?
For couplings, I'd suggest magnets - a bigger version of the 'Magclic' - http://www.modelrailwaywagons.co.uk/ (http://www.modelrailwaywagons.co.uk/)
I know where there are microcards of a few original Mk1 drawings - I'm currently listing them with a view to getting them scanned. may take a while though.
Andy
Tim,
The best source of info on all aspects of Mk.1's is the HMRS / Pendragon hardback "British Railways Mk.1 Coaches" by Keith Parkin.
Dozens of detailed scale drawings of all types (including the Metro-Cammell Pullmans and TPO stock)and hundreds of photos ... every aspect of every Mk.1 (including NPCS) is covered.
Bought a copy when it was first published ..... must have been late '80s or early 90's..... when going through a Mk.1 "phase" (now cured!).
I still have my copy, which I rate as the best book on any coaching stock I have seen.
Regards,
John.
Quote from: John Candy on Sep 03 2016 07:23
Tim,
The best source of info on all aspects of Mk.1's is the HMRS / Pendragon hardback "British Railways Mk.1 Coaches" by Keith Parkin.
I still have my copy, which I rate as the best book on any coaching stock I have seen.
Regards,
John.
And according to Amazon a good investment as well! :-X - Although eBay has them listed at a third of the price. 8)
Yikes!
I thought Abe Books had a monopoly on stratospheric prices...... but Amazon are plainly jumping on the bandwagon!
If anyone wants my (mint) copy, they can have it for 35GBP plus postage (I bought at York when it was first published...cover price 19.95GBP).
John.
Nobody seems to have taken up Phil's offer for the complete rake of Curlew coaches.
From what I've seen of them, although basic in some ways, the sides are very nice, laser cut from CAD and assuming they are accurate would make a good base for a model. Cheapest and quickest solution may be to buy the rake and modify them to suit your requirements.
But, at least three other groups of people were working on MK1s a year or two back - surely they havn't all fallen by the wayside and given up? And if they have, maybe some parts could be available?
Mike
I've asked Tim Cray of Curlew Coaches for an indicative price for G3 Mk1s, painted in maroon which would be my preference. They feature many of the correct castings such as vents, battery boxes, dynamos, door handles, bogie sides, buffers, etc, but would be supplied with 3-link couplings, and compensation rather than springs, for simplicity. Tim added that the corridor connections would be closed when coupled up, and these would have a degree of 'give' to allow for curves. The coaches would be supplied with interiors, painted and lined, but without numbers. RTR price would be around £650 for one, whether SK, BSK, or whatever version takes one's fancy. Tim did indicate that a price for several could be negotiable to some extent, though remarked that his prices were "on the floor" anyway.
Tim was happy for me to summarise our conversation on the forum by the way.
I may practice some CAD drawings of carriage sides next month when I am laid up after an op, but does anyone have any tips when dealing with laser cutting of thin ply? For instance do apertures cut oversize because of the burning by the beam? Is it feasible to cut narrow details or will they burn away? I am thinking mainly of the glazing bars in the top parts of the windows.
Thanks, Tim
i was told the kerf, the slot cut by a laser beam (just like a saw) is usually 0.2mm wide from a standard CAD line. So if you're doing tabs and slots you might want to allow for that if you want everything really tight. I've never bothered making such an allowance and not had problems, except with small diameter holes, for bolts or rivets.
If you're cutting really thick material, say 9mm ply, the cut may not end up vertical. I speak from sad experience about that. But thin stuff, say, 1.6mm is fine from my experience.
As for narrow details, I had some GWR carriage beading cut in 0.5mm acrylic, including 0.75mm wide, and that was fine, but the same in the same thickness of rowmark was not so good, the material distorted a bit. I guess card, MDF or ply would also be fine down to that size.
Some of the above may depend on the laser cutting machine and its operator. I used 4D models in London, they know what they are doing, but they're not cheap.
As Geoff said, it can be down to the machine / operator - so worth asking first.
I have discovered a new laser cutting service in Derby for non-metallics.
They must be pretty well on your route to/from work:
http://derbyshirelaser.co.uk/ (http://derbyshirelaser.co.uk/)
I haven't contacted them yet (need to get a batch of etch design workout of the way first) but certainly plan to for some items I want to try out.
Andy
Thanks for encouraging news Geoff. And thanks Andy for the contact in Derby, I have made an approach and am awaiting their interest. I propose to send in a test piece file first, to see how the window and glazing bars would look in, say, 1mm ply as a starter for ten, with a view to making thicker if necessary. All I need now is a window drawing!
I'm looking forward to this project, but am still looking for a partner to speed things up.
Regards, Tim
Quote from: Peaky 556 on Sep 08 2016 10:15
All I need now is a window drawing!
I've looked and I can't find one of the main (4ft) windows. Sorry!
All I could find was a 2'3" toilet window, which was scarcely readable.
I think you'll need a trip to Butterley armed with a camera, tape measure & notebook.
I believe that you also need to choose your window frame type, as the orginal bodies suffered from corrosion and a variety of fixes, some with new frames, were applied.
Andy
when taking measurements, for some things like window corner radii, or door stops, you may find the brass rubbing technique useful. just hold a sheet of paper over the corner and go over it with a crayon. Better than a photo or a measurement, it's a permanent record you can re-examine at your leisure.
Thanks guys, armed with a lot of measurements and photos, and a great deal of help from a Yahoo forum with the snappy title "British Railways Loco Hauled Coaching Stock Since 1948", I am ready to go. I am undecided between some readily available steel sides (that would need rolling) and laser cut ply, but will try both. Has anyone tried to roll coach sides?
I will report on progress, but it seems I am a lone operator so progress will not be fast!
Regards, Tim
I will let you go first Tim... I am using laser cut ply. I am still not too sure if I should steam it or try to bend it cold and dry? This may involve building a steamer to take the coach sides.
Regards
Ralph
Tim,
I doubt you will be able to use the usual pinch rolls because for the length you'll need for a complete MK1 side the rollers will be quite large in diameter and not roll to the edge. I think you would need to cobble something together, maybe using a fly press and some sort of strips to bend the side against.
My coach kits are etched brass and have horizontal half-etched lines along the lower part of the back. It rolls easily by hand. I wonder if you could in some way score such lines onto the back to help it bend in a straight line?
Mike
Mike, interesting thoughts but they add unwelcome complexity. A friend is conducting some trials on my behalf with a wide rolling mill and one technique that is promising is to use a wider backing sheet and pass the two through together. Only small samples have been tried so far, and I will be seeking advice from Walsall on how they built their coaches using these panels. Anything more complex and I will be strongly tempted to change to thin ply.
Ralph, what radius do your coach sides require?
Tim,
According to the drawings the base of the coach side requires a radius of 75mm. The roof has a compound radius of 41mm at the edges and 91mm at the centre. I plan to make the roof from thin balsa and then laminate thin ABS sheet onto that.
Regards
Ralph
Ralph, these radii are quite tight and for any ply thicker than 1mm I would suggest steaming it.
Does anyone have suggestions for sourcing corridor connections? That could be commercial ones or good ways of making up from scratch.
Thanks, Tim
Although he is "G1" and "G0" my friend Martyn makes his with wire formers and cut strips of duct tape. The formers are made from MIG welding wire and the duct tape is folded origami like so the outer parts go over the formers and the inner parts stick to it. Pleat a sheet of paper and the "hills" are the outside duct and the "valleys" are the inside duct.
I will do you a doodle later and mail it you.
regards
ralph
Thanks Ralph, the idea is good, and I won't hold it against Martyn for not having seen the light yet!
Regards, Tim