Plans are afoot!
The RS540 specification brushless motor and the Quanum 2208 Brushless Motor have arrived from China and the UK. The RS540 has FET (Field Effect Transistor) feedback for connection to a an ESC (Electric Speed Controller) based Brushless Controller with FET inputs, the Quanum comes without FET's, as does most Radio Control equipment on the market.
Whilst waiting for some remaining items to be delivered, I wanted to see how they fared physically in relation to Gauge 3 back-to-back wheel dimensions, although the main plan is really to test their slow speed control potential for model railway applications before I start making any decisions on manufacturing gearboxs and mounting frames.
Here they are seen in comparison to a set of G3 wheels from GRS - Ref: Slaters Plastikard G3125 Gauge 3 (G64) Coach Wheel 3' 7" Plain Disc
Here they are with the RS540.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/geWdSc/20180302_090433.jpg) (http://ibb.co/geWdSc)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/j8wj0x/20180302_090229.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j8wj0x)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fENrfx/20180302_090302.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fENrfx)
And with the Quanum 2208
(http://thumb.ibb.co/kgjF7c/20180302_090628.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kgjF7c)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hEfitH/20180302_090657.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hEfitH)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/f5phnc/20180302_090647.jpg) (http://ibb.co/f5phnc)
The Quanum 2208 was selected for its small size potential for use in very small locomotives and Electric multiple Unit rolling stock where you don't want the motors intruding through the floor. Like these Isle-of-Wight, ex-LT1938 tube vehicles which have very small diameter wheels, typically in the region of about 2' 6" . . .
(http://thumb.ibb.co/mYscnc/Class483_dinosaur.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mYscnc)
The RS540 was selected for my ADtranz 12X locomotive test rig where more power is required. This project was initially documented in this thread - http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,2087.msg13549.html#msg13549
The Brushless Motor Test Rig (barring acquiring some remaining cables) is almost complete parts wise, and nearly ready to be assembled to test various motor/controller combinations.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/j9tHnc/BLS_GZ_KLV_7_0_20140109_bobs_2.png) (http://ibb.co/j9tHnc)
This build thread will be added to with my experiences with Radio Control, Digital Sound and of course the locomotive builds - providing I can find a suitable means of propulsion.
All very interesting, and now you have got me thinking about 38 stock in our scale!
QuoteAll very interesting, and now you have got me thinking about 38 stock in our scale!
You'll have to build it with air-operated doors (or at least simulated air operation)!
To be realistic they will have to open and shut several times before the starting signal bell will "ping".......memories of the Northern Line commute from Morden in the 1960's!
John.
It's certainly very ambitious Doddy - but why not?
It's Gauge 3 and we have a lot more room for interesting stuff on board... :D
Regards,
IanT
Walsall Models G3 LMS ICI Wagon
Ideal for dragging behind a Whistler... 8F, 25, 45, 46, and latterley pairs of 20s and pairs of class 37's
(https://thumb.ibb.co/bJ9Axz/20180902_110916.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJ9Axz)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/mga0xz/20180902_110933.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mga0xz)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/dxnkVK/20180902_110922.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dxnkVK)
Interesting...
I saw those hoppers at Walsall... nice...
For most, the evocative sound of the Deltic commands attention. Up close, the throb of the engine creates reverberations in your chest. But how to record the Deltic? Unknown to many is that the source of the engines howl and beating comes from each of the two engines respective air intakes. Problem is, the exhaust is on one side of the locomotive and the air intake is on the other.
The use of close-micing and several microphones allows a multi-track synchronised recording that can be edited later.
This is myself and Kevin West being filmed, recording 55 019 whilst under static test, previous recordings were made on the steep bank of Barrow Hill including the overload shutdown whilst under acceleration which made me reminisce being back on Stevenage new town station as the 14 coach Down 'Aberdonian' pulled away north on its evenings run up to Aberdeen.
The next step is to create and edit the digitally recorded samples and load an ARM 7 processor chip with 24bit (studio quality) sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHKTBvr0hk8&feature=youtu.be
I can only once recall having experienced the sight and sound of a "Deltic" in full flight (I lived in the far South near Battle and was more accustomed to the endless rattle of the Hastings DEMUs).
Was around 1968, while sitting on New Barnet station, when I saw an UP express approaching in the distance, along the straight track, and the ground shook as it got closer.
A big contrast to the Cravens DMU which had taken me there from Kings Cross, to attend a hearing in the County Court...... it struggled to get started and limped all the way, the driver having more than once got down from his cab and hit something underneath with a spanner!
The next occasion I had cause to travel North was to Leeds but by then the HST 125s had taken over.... a shame but the restaurant car breakfast was excellent....all paid for by the firm! One thing I recall about the 125s was a dreadful smell under hard braking......must have been something to do with the composition of the brake blocks.
Regards,
John.
Quote from: John Candy on Nov 18 2018 09:43A big contrast to the Cravens DMU which had taken me there from Kings Cross
You can imagine how knackered I was then travelling out from and back to Stevenage every weekend by Class 105 Cravens. All stops KX to Stevenage.
And all that after visiting KX, St Pancras, and Euston stations, 3rd rail Class 501's or LT1938 stock out to Queens Park and Willesden Jnc for Willesden Electric Depot, Hymeks at Old Oak Common and back to Paddington for the evenings departures with Westerns, Hoovers and named WR Brush 4's.
QuoteYou can imagine how knackered I was then travelling out from and back to Stevenage every weekend by Class 105 Cravens. All stops KX to Stevenage.
Indeed, I had thought the Hastings units were bad enough until I had experienced the GNR suburban service!
At least the Hastings trains had a buffet car to ease the agony!
Regards,
John.
Following on from Tims request for low cost sound http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,1661.msg14579.html#msg14579
First of all, having a sound sub-section on this forum is likely to go the same way all other forums have gone - straight into the ground! RMWeb, ukdccsound and many others have caused endless pissing matches due to one thing.
It costs real money to do this right and people wont share the results for nothing. #metoo #nocandoGenerally, there is no money being put in by the people who want the results of considerable amounts of time effort and lots of editing work, notwithstanding the politics of gaining access to locomotives and supporting that access with financial donations.
Hence the popularity of low cost sound units like
mylocosound (£62) and others, compared with high cost
ZIMO and
LokSound DCC sound units (£187), and even more expensive
MiTroniks combined power controller and Sound Units (£300+), of course G scale units like
Dallee (£118) and
Phoenix (£259) are primarily geared for US locomotives and not fully reprogrammable by users.
The DCC sound units from ZIMO and LokSound are fully user programmable via a USB cable or convertor box driven from a specific manufacturers PC sound programming application. But ONLY FOR YOUR OWN PROJECTS not commercially available projects! - from a sound perspective these are locked out, although access to general CV's can still be changed.
Projects like mylocosound, Dallee, Phoenix and the likes use a basic engine noise and then synthesize the engine noise to create acceleration and decceleration noises of the throttle being moved. This is synched to the output Vdc of the controller concerned and the sound follows the voltage applied to the motor.
Result - CRAP!So, we need our own sounds, well , at least for those that tinny sounding expensive decoders are not going to pass muster, and not for those whose embarrassment at spending enormous amounts of money on low bitrate sound cards won't allow them to change their requirements. And for those whose budget is low cost - like mine these days, cheaper solutions are available if you want to put the work in.
Obtaining decent sounds are normally done by arranging personal access to specific locomotives.
This is a short list of principle sound sources -
(https://i.ibb.co/bQ0pSYP/Sound-Sources-White.png) (https://ibb.co/bQ0pSYP)
Of course you need a method of recording them . . . this was taken from an old website I had in development.
(https://i.ibb.co/s3H3tRZ/Recording-Process.png) (https://ibb.co/s3H3tRZ)
The flow from locomotive, through high quality microphones, through a high quality recording device, processed by a good audio editor, and finally loaded onto a sound chip via PC software.
50 to 100 hours work for just the editing cycle would not be uncommon.
Why high end?, well because low cost recording devices like smartphones do not record quality sound with a wide dynamic range like high end microphones.
See this view of a GWR King Class whistle, most of the background can be heard but when the whistle blows, most low cost recording devices cannot cope with the transition in volume and clip the audio.
(https://i.ibb.co/ngQpcsx/GWR-King-Whistle-GW.png) (https://ibb.co/ngQpcsx)
There is also the issue of
Doppler Effect, of which sound recordings made lineside are absolutely useless for programming a soundchip.
Thesedays microphones in Sound Recording devices like
GoPro are used allowing sound recordings to be made whilst the locomotive is in motion, something I had done with traditional
Sennheiser microphones since 2007. See 56 003 below . . .
(https://i.ibb.co/r04p4cc/56-mic-b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r04p4cc)
That way, locomotive recordings can be made of the locomotive under light engine and hauling railway stock, the loads, engine sounds and reaction to movement can be recorded, the sound clips edited on an audio editor and a more realistic representation of the locomotive is achieved.
John Candy asked for low cost sound card solutions, well I found this video today, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv8wqnk_TsA
I have checked out the hardware and will play with it once it all arrives in the post. This baby (
Adafruit Audio FX Sound Board - WAV/OGG Trigger with 16Mb Flash Memory) is about
£27 on Amazon.
(https://i.ibb.co/Xj8rTYW/2220-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xj8rTYW)
References:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv8wqnk_TsA
- https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Adafruit+Audio+FX+Sound+Board+-+WAV%2FOGG+Trigger+with+16MB+Flash+
- https://www.adafruit.com/product/2220
Viele Spass! Have Fun!
Bob
Robert,
This makes interesting reading. The pcb you show is very similar to the Explorer 64 pcb that I am about to experiment with. I plan to use it to feed GCode data files to my laser etcher. But it should be possible to pump sound files to a simple amplifier chip and then to a cone in cone isobarick speaker system
IanT knows more about this pcb than I do, at the moment! My personal sound system is a little "different" and has a headphone amplifier rated at 25w RMS and main speakers a metre square.
It is too late in the evening for me to focus clearly but I will study this more in the morning.
Regards
Ralph
I have been out for much of the day but this sound project seems to be going ahead in leaps and bounds!
My original suggestion was merely for a library of files as a guide to whistle sounds, to be used to adjust the output of sound cards of the MyLocoSound variety.
If a simple card which can accept engine sound from recordings is possible (I believe Brian Jones does sell a card which can be ordered with a limited choice of loco classes.... at a price) then that takes the game to a whole new level.
As Bob points out, the sound recordings still have to be obtained and that requires adequate equipment, skill and a willingness to obtain permissions and trudge around preservation sites.
QuoteFirst of all, having a sound sub-section on this forum is likely to go the same way all other forums have gone - straight into the ground! RMWeb, ukdccsound and many others have caused endless pissing matches due to one thing.
The sound files and other data can be held on the Gauge3.info server (the G3 Wiki) and will be available as long as I am around and provision will be made to ensure they survive me.
This forum will also be maintained for as long as it is serving a useful purpose.
I will follow developments with interest but will not comment on the technical aspects since I am out of touch with developments such as Arduino. I haven't written a full program since the mid-1980s when CP/M was the operating system for micro computers.
Regards,
John.
I've not thought too much about 'on-board' sound effects - certainly not to the level that Doddy has..
The Adafruit board looks like an interesting (and affordable) sound option and it would be simple to control via an external micro (such as an Arduino or MM) using I/O pins instead of physical 'buttons' (as shown in the YT example). A further step in complexity would be to use something like the E64 Micromite (which Ralph has just acquired) and which has USB and SD built-in. As far as I can tell from a quick look, the sound chip plays pre-loaded (FAT) sound files and comes 'pre-programmed' with certain sequences. The E64 has a file system that can access the SD card and could (in theory) feed other devices via USB - but we are moving into real complexity here. It also has SPI available - which can be used to re-programme the sound chip - which has quite a lot of programmable options it seems... but now we are getting into very advanced territory.
I checked and the VS1000 chip appears to cost about 15 Euros (inc VAT) one-off - so the Adafruit board at £22 (with 16Mb Flash) seems very reasonable. However the option is there to do a custom PCB if ever required - working off the same code base.
There may be all sorts of problems (Gotchas) using this device in practice for some applications - like trying to play continous sound and getting pauses whilst moving between files for instance - even short blips might be a problem. Less of a problem if you need discrete sounds (like whistles etc) of course. So I guess the solution is for someone to 'suck it and see' (what is possible).
Look forward to hearing more but I'm currently still in recovery (our Grandchildren only left yesterday) and building my strength for the New Year! :-)
Regards,
IanT
IanT,
Making a custom PCB might be beyond the resources of a single use user. What you can get is "prototyping board" which has single plated holes which do not connect. You connect these with a conductive ink pen, so in effect you play "join the dots"... Any mistakes can be rubbed out, or the entire board scrubbed in the sink. Once the correct PCB is written the board gets a few coats of varnish to protect it. It does require some soldering for connections etc, but it would simplify "one off" production.
My sons Synth uses this system. Parts of the original test circuits being made on cornflakes cardboard...
Regards
Ralph
Obviously showing my age here but I used to use a vero-pin prototyping system that was very similar to the hand-wired backplanes used on computers not so many years ago (well OK - about 40!). Then I moved to 'Veroboard' (a tradename I guess) but these days use a form of prototype board which is quite useful. I've not heard of your "ink" system Ralph, which sounds interesting, as soldering small jumper wires can get a bit annoying. Perhaps you could give a link to a good source?
With regards PCB production, I intend to take a lead from my MERG friends who use various PCB layout software systems and then send the 'Gerbers' (??) off to China for production. I was concerned that some of this software would just be another mountain to climb (together with 2D-CAD, 3D-CAD, Templot, IDEs - MPLab X, MMB etc) - which involves more time invested in side activities before getting back to the actual end project. However, they have suggested that a "part-timer" (like me) would find an open source product called 'Fritzing' very easy to learn and use - and that is what I will eventually do. Basically - it lets you draw a prototype board with connections, converts that to a circuit diagram and PCB layout - and most importantly generates a gerber file that the Chinese can use. So once you have a working prototype, hopefully it will be fairly easy to transform it into a more realiable and smaller end product. As I've mentioned, I have several things I'm working on and as the minimum PCB order is Qty 10 - will have some left over if others here wish to experiment.
Regards,
IanT
This is the pen that we used.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SODIAL-Conductive-Electronic-Instantly-Education/dp/B07CHGT4ZK/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1546000404&sr=8-5&keywords=silver%2Bconductive%2Bpen&th=1
The main ICs exist on protype Euro Cards. It is extremely easy to use.
regards
ralph
In the days when car heated rear screens had a kind of printed/"transfer" surface element on the glass, you were able to buy a conductive silver repair pen in Halfords and similar car part shops. They were used to bridge any "burn outs" in the element. Presumably this the same stuff? Do Halfords still sell it?
John.
Was just re-reading this thread and it occurred to me that the Micromite Plus (which runs on the mid-range PIC32 chips - 64 & 100 pin versions) can already play WAV files directly from an SD card. I've not tried this on my E64, so I don't know exactly what sound quality is possible - but on the very fast PIC32 MZ chip (which runs a very powerful version of MMBasic called 'eXtreme') - I found the following note:
"Extended WAV File Playback: The Micromite eXtreme can play WAV files (like the Micromite Plus) however, if the eXtreme is configured to run at 252 Mhz it is also capable of playing WAV files recorded with sampling rates of 24 KHz and 48 KHz." This sounds quite impressive but in truth I've no real idea what is required in practice for our applications...
My 'on-board' thoughts have thus far been directed at the simple 'Micromite' using the simplest/slowest 28 pin device that runs MM Basic. The larger chips are (x5) faster, have a lot more memory and a lot more I/O. They also run enhanced versions of MMB (Plus & eXtreme) which are backwards compatible with the 'basic' MMB version - so anything written for the simpler chip will run on the faster ones but not vice versa where the enhanced features have been used.
My main reason for using the 28pin DIP was for ease of soldering but now I'm beginning to solder-flow SMD devices, some of that logic is starting to fade away it seems...
One thing at a time though... my H-Bridge has finally arrived.
Regards,
IanT
P.S. Thank you Ralph - I'll order one to try.
As we get the sound project(s) underway, I think we will find all sorts of cards at all sorts of prices to suit everybodies pockets. Nice work identifying another source of bits though Ian.
As far as the sampling rate is concerned, I record at 24bit 88.2Khz, and load my projects at 16bit 44.1Khz (CD quality) purely because the sound format I use allows a greater dynamic range to be recorded than lower sampling formats.
Almost all but the MiTroniks card (16bit 44.1Khz) are low bitrate cards 8bits through to 11bits although there is some conjecture as to what Dallee, Phoenix, ZIMO and Loksound are using these days, they certainly don't sound like 16bit samples being played from my last listening review.
I was working with the designer of the MiTroniks card and played a Class 56 file through his three way Hi-Fi speaker system, and from three feet away you could feel the engine vibrations trying to punch a hole your ribs.
There are techniques that easily dispel the fallacy that good quality sound cannot be played through small speakers- even down to OO gauge!, it is the sound chip (processor) that determines the poor quality.
As to how to integrate with Radio Control etc
Ralph and Tim introduced me to a Radio Transmitter and Receiver which has multiple push buttons and outouts which can be routed to the inputs of the audio cards to select and play relevant sounds.
Sound is not a real priority for me at the moment - but I found this post on (what is effectively) the Micromite Forum. To be honest, I'd never heard of 'FLAC' before but others seem to think it's better than WAV and it's now an integral part of the MMB (Plus & eXtreme) language.
https://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9395&KW=FLAC
The supported 'FLAC' sampling rates are given below and they seem to be within Doddys' performance criteria.
44.1KHz 16-bit (CD quality) and 24-bit
48.0KHz 16-bit and 24-bit
88.2KHz 16-bit and 24-bit
96.0KHz 24-bit
192.0KHz 24-bit (252MHz CPU only)
As one of the I2S DAC devices (that the FLAC s/w uses) is listed at £2.62 - an E64 system (plus a 32Gb SD card) with this device would be an interesting sound solution and still have enough processor/memory bandwidth to handle a radio control link and any other engine I/O required. You could look at this as an on-board engine controller with an optional sound device that costs about £2-£3 - or a dedicated 32Gb engine sound system (for about £40). You also need the sound files too of course.
As you say Doddy - there are probably many ways to do these things but as I already use the MM system for other stuff, it's nice to have these options available if I need them.
Regards,
IanT
Nice research Ian! :D
.FLAC files use a lossless codec to compress audio files, unlike .MP3 files which loose audio data.
In that guise the compact nature of the files would be useful for applications where onboard storage memory is at a premium. The .FLAC format is also very good for audio archiving.
The downside for us, is that for Diesel, Electric and maybe some Steam projects, the use of .FLAC files will increase the usage of the processor chip as the .FLAC files will need to be decoded (unpacked) before they can be played.
For continual streaming and one-shot sounds that should not present a problem, however when you are stitching samples together . . ?
If the onboard processor chip has to fetch and carry .FLAC sound samples, then decode them, there is an inherrent risk that latency maybe introduced in between different sound samples thus leading to a potentially unsatisfactory audio scenario producing gaps in the audio output stream where as close to zero latency is really required.
The MiTroniks sound card I mentioned in earlier postings, has the ability to have the sound files stored on a swappable Micro-SD card, thus allowing a different sound project to be loaded by the user but retain the original hardware.
NB: If an original MiTroniks sound project like a Class 20 locomotive is required to be changed to a Class 66 then you just purchase a new Micro-SD card for £29. (https://www.mtroniks.net/cat/Sound-Systems-For-Scale-Models) Although I am very sure MiTroniks would like you to purchase an entirely new Controller/Sound Unit for £300+
Within the powerup cycle of the MiTroniks sound card the contents of the Micro-SD card are loaded into the processors memory thus minimising the considerable latency issues presented by trying to read files from external memory cards.
For the Diesel Horn, Klaxon and Steam Whistle projects that John and Ralph have described where short, single-shot audio files are played, I have no doubt that .FLAC configured devices will present no issues.It maybe, that an entire Steam project could be configured this way. Diesels and Electric projects - Nah I am really not convinced on that one.
The next question is to how many internal audio channels are available with such cards and how the relative internal audio streams volumes are adjusted and mixed down together to Stereo or Mono audio outputs?
Yes, as I understand it the system is streaming data off the SD card directly into the I2S channel - and once set-up there is very little processor overhead. At that level the programming required comprises a few lines. "Stitching" these files together would require a lot more intervention I imagine. Since sound volume is controlled down-stream (in the DAC system) - I wonder if it would be possible to 'mix' several analogue signals to achieve the same result?
I have no idea what is possible with the larger (MZ) chips, as I've never needed the performance but they might support two channels that could be mixed under program control. It is possible to throw a dedicated processor at a problem with MMB - as it supports both Master & Slave I2C modes - which means you can control 'secondary' MMB systems from the main one (an example is given in the manual).
Back to the "Now" - started to look at driving the DRV8871 (H-Bridge) chip from my little (28 pin) MM - and it looks fairly straightforward - hope my confidence isn't misplaced!
Regards,
IanT
I have sneaked out... The time slicing problem is a valid one. Stereo could be produced by sending alternate sound pulses to the two speakers in much the same way FM stereo or CD-4 worked.
A simple "switch case" loop could detect buttons and feed that to the selected speaker. I personally would decompress the FLAC file to save on cpu time and store it as a serial file. Given the fact that 16gB SDs are now sold at the local co-op - file sizes are no longer a problem!!!
The FM stereo timing frequency is 19kHz the CD-4 was over 30kHz. If we stick to a nice number of 20kHz then this gives us a nice mathematical number to work with!
I have to gey back to work...
Regards
Ralph
Ralph,
What I should have described to you is a Stereo pair, both Left and Right channels operating as seperate Mono outputs.
All you need is Left channel, Right channel or Left+Right channel. You are entirely correct on the .FLAC unpacking and latency timing issues though.
My plan for the Peak Diesel and other projects, was to use two or maybe three Stereo sound cards and produce a distributed sound system throughout the model.
(https://i.ibb.co/bQYK8Rs/BR45-Logic-Diagram.png) (https://ibb.co/bQYK8Rs)
That way, the Air Compressor and Vacuum exhauster can sound in the relevant nose, Brake Noises and track squeal from the relevant bogie, Air Horns from the relevant driving Cab, and engine sounds centrally in the bodyshell.
Radio Control from the Deltang Rx Receivers trigger Outputs wired to the Soundcards trigger Inputs for user operated Air Horns, Start-up and Shutdown sequences . . . Guards Whistle . . . etc
Of course, all of this is possible on one soundcard with a single speaker like most commerical products. 8) As long as you have multiple internal audio channels and an onboard mixer, otherwise the sampled sounds will play over each other. Yes Ian, you can edit the files to cover two (or more) sounds at the same time, but you loose all flexibility of dynamically changing the audio output - the result sounds terrible.
Robert,
From what you have described it looks like you are going to have to build a "truth table" of actions.
Viz:
Loco decellerates, brake sounds = yes.
The table gets boiled down to a set of rules from which the "switch case" loops can be built. The entire thing will have to be a set of loops within loops, each loop operating on one parameter to decide what to do.
I know it sounds complex but it is actually quite simple. The problem is more your end Robert! Two distinct sound channels are easy, how you blend and mix them into a "dual mono" system to produce a sound to your liking I have to leave to you....
Regards
Ralph
Quote from: cabbage on Dec 30 2018 11:56
Robert,
From what you have described it looks like you are going to have to build a "truth table" of actions.
Viz:
Loco decellerates, brake sounds = yes.
I know it sounds complex but it is actually quite simple.
Yes, I know I have been doing this for myself and various major toy manufacturers since 2007
Found this on Gavin's youtube channel this morning . . .
https://youtu.be/8TOpFqgL4C0
The epitome of G3 in the Garden? It's got to be very close for me.
I just love the colours of the trains and having standard and narrow gauge running together- sublime! 8) 8) 8)
Doddy
PS: Nice garden too!
Here is Warton Road, as seen at National Garden Railway Show (Peterborough), last Saturday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtmflWnBnNM
Worthy of note is the model of the 100HP Sentinel (in grey primer) which is the first of the "production" models arising from the "Plantagenet" project. The model was being test-run, having recently been completed).
There is an initial batch of four which will soon available for sale (through the G3S) and a second batch is at the planning stage.
Quote from: John Candy on Mar 03 2018 09:23
You'll have to build it with air-operated doors (or at least simulated air operation)!
To be realistic they will have to open and shut several times before the starting signal bell will "ping".......memories of the Northern Line commute from Morden in the 1960's!
John.
Strange as it may seem, I have (after a year or so of frustrating R&D), got the doors to work on my G class (later Q23) District line motor car. When I have the rest of it together, I'll share how it was done, this will prevent anyone else going down the same series of blind alleys as me!
John Branch
QuoteI have (after a year or so of frustrating R&D), got the doors to work on my G class (later Q23) District line motor car.
Well done.....this I must see!
Regards,
John.
to see if I can.
After a pleasent weekend photographing ex-LT1938 tube stock on the I-O-W. I decided to see how to drive the 2' 7" wheels from an ex-DVD motor.
First the new Griffon Hovercraft
(https://i.ibb.co/RT3dFMX/20190511-110607.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RT3dFMX)
And delapidated tube stock at St Johns Depot
(https://i.ibb.co/tb3QqJ0/20190511-140454.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tb3QqJ0)
And a bite to eat at the Ryde Pier cafe - well in order! Service was excellent and freshly cooked food - delicious!
(https://i.ibb.co/nqpCXRW/20190511-150857.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nqpCXRW)
After establishing that the wheels axle needs to turn at 500rpm to achieve a prototypical 45 mph, the DVD motor is rated at 6500 rpm. Calculating a double reduction gearbox using this website proved useful.
http://www.smex.net.au/Reference/Ratios02.php
Prior to that Ineeded to understand the relationship between an Axles rotational speed and Miles Per Hour. So back to the PC and a short blast on an Excel spreadsheet.
(https://i.ibb.co/8DbrnP9/1938-Tube-Stock-jpeg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DbrnP9)
Using the SMEX calculator I derived a 13:1 double reduction gearbox configuration.
(https://i.ibb.co/2SZRD4L/SMEX-jpeg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2SZRD4L)
I don't intend building a tube train, but found the process helpful to get my mind around gearbox design. I trust others will find the information useful to them.
Doddy
"...the DVD motor is rated at 6500 rpm."
Just capturing a line from Doddy's workings, as a general comment to anybody thinking of designing or choosing their own gearbox or ratio, it is not appropriate to use the free running speed of the motor. Not that I'm assuming the 6500 rpm is the free running speed in Doddy's case, but the reality is that maximum power is achieved at about 50% of free running speed.
Consequently if we hope to work a small power unit hard to get the top speed we want, it's probably wise to gear the motor for 50% revs at the speed we want. Then if power is a bit marginal, it's more likely to run as we want, and if it's overpowered, it's just a matter of treading gently on the 'go' pedal.
Generally these thoughts are a bit academic though, as most suppliers of motor-gearbox units wouldn't tell you the speeds or ratios anyway!
Regards,
Tim
My thoughts exactly Tim, many thanks for drawing them out.
Your assumption of my using a maximum speed at 6500rpm is therefore correct.
In the case of any potential 1938 'Tube' car, I envisaged that I would not want it operating much (if at all) above a scale 35mph, so the 50% powerloss would have been almost irrelevant in my particular case.
As for monitoring the motor speed, I just treated myself to one of those hand held laser gadgets you use yourself to count the rpm on spindles - cost £8.72 inc p+p comes complete from Guangdong with a Chinese 'dump Trump' cap and flag.
Doddy
Normally, I am on the ball so to speak, but cannot identify where this photo was taken.
Any takers?
(https://i.ibb.co/VxdDy7x/2a427b07a046c079aca93c0155d79ac7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxdDy7x)
Fort William
John.
Just recently I saw a photo from this DVD and decided to get a copy, fortunately the MIBA website still has them, they are rather old as the former Big Boy of Dobwalls Theme Park was presented.
(https://i.ibb.co/7rmz19m/MIBA-Gartenbahn.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7rmz19m)
The stock of Dobwalls was dispersed across the globe many years ago, I seem to remember that the Big Boy sold for about £250,000.
Nonetheless, Bob Symes (Robert Alexander Baron Schutzmann von Schutzmansdorff (6 May 1924 – 19 January 2015)) introduces another Austrian chap whose father built a rather nice 1:27.5 scale Railway in his garden.
(https://i.ibb.co/hgPt7jx/OBB-1670-back.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hgPt7jx)
(https://i.ibb.co/fxx4JNZ/OBB-1670-LOK.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fxx4JNZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/9ZhbWhg/OBB-1670-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9ZhbWhg)
(https://i.ibb.co/9yZZ011/OBB-Station.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9yZZ011)
(https://i.ibb.co/Qb7Rk9k/OBB-Wien.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qb7Rk9k)
If this is what can be done in 52mm gauge (1:27.5) then G3 (1:22.58) offers just that little bit extra scope for railway modelling. Either way, to see a near G3 scale train in this environment is truly heart warming and one that I find rather inspirational.
1:22.58 Doddy - what happened to 1:22.6 ?
IanT
P.S. Like the railway though...
Here we go around the Mulberry bush . . .
1 foot = 304.8 mm
304.8 mm / 13.5 mm = 22.577777777
Sorry Robert but the metre is now defined as a numner of Cadmium Red wavelengths and your accuracy is still way out...
Regards
Ralph
I'm afraid not - G3 is 2.5" gauge and we model UK standard gauge at 4ft 81/2" - all imperial measurements
That's 56.5"/2.5" = 22.6.
No (Metric) Mulberry Bushes were involved (or harmed) in this calculation...
Regards,
IanT
This is the third time we have had this dicussion and I for one, I am thoroughly sick and tired of this pedantic discourse. Clearly you have a bee in your bonnet that needs to be cleared out.
If it is so wrong in your mind, then why not (for the second or third time of asking) get the G3 society website updated with the correct information? It does not appear on the technical standards webpage either.
(https://i.ibb.co/zHPfLy4/G3-track-Gauge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHPfLy4)
Perhaps a word in the ear of the webmaster to make the changes needed? . . . Ooops my bad!
Oh dear!
Let's not "nitpick" over fractions of a mm (or thousandths of an inch) .... very few of our models are likely to be precisely to scale anyway ...... measuring and cutting, material shrinkage (resin and plastics) all contrive to introduce errors....add to that the fact that a great many of the available "scale" drawings include errors.
There is a body of opinion which says, "if it looks right", then that's good enough.
John.
I don't see any problem with the Website.
Between the wars, most G3 modellers moved to 17/32" scale (from 1/2") as it was very much nearer the correct ratio and also gave a bit more space. With the advent of metrication - some (including myself) found 13.5mm to be a convenient ratio to work to. Now 17/32 = 13.494mm and 13.5mm = 0.5315" (17/32" = 0.53125") - so they are not exactly the same but are very close. A 30ft loco built to 17/32nd would be 404.82mm long, at 13.5mm it would be 405mm long and at (an exact) scale of 1:22.6 it would be 404.6mm long. So, I agree that there is virtually no difference in practice whether one uses one of the "rules-of-thumb" or the correct scaling factor. However - if you are going to use a scaling factor - why not use the right one?
These days I use 22.6 because it is so very simple to draw in CAD a full sized prototype and then just simply scale it by 22.6. I also find it convenient to just divide any full sized measurement by 22.6 to get its scale equivalent - although I will then probably convert it into mm most of the time.
As to a bee in my bonnet - well initially I thought I was just pointing out a simple fact. However, having meditated on the issue, I've decide I probably do have a bit a buzz in my noggin. It probably started many years ago when GRS started calling Gauge 3 - "G64" - because I guess they didn't want to call it "G63.5".
It died away for a while but resurfaced a year or two ago, when the G3S announced on it's banners that the scale was 1:22.5 (same as LGB).
And then there was the most recent occasion when Garden Rail insisted on heading their Sentinel article as being a "1:22.5" scale article - and also actually changed the text to say I'd designed the loco at 1:22.5 - which as you may have gathered from above was incorrect - the Sentinel was most definitely scaled at 1:22.6.
What's the practical difference, well not a lot at all really - but why change things that don't need to be changed.
Gauge 3 is blessed with having a single gauge and scale and in that we are unique when compared to the larger model railway gauges G0 & G1. If someone wants to build at 1:22.58 or 1:22.3 - then of course they are very welcome to do so - I really don't care. But if you are going to post things as "facts" then let's try to stick to the actual scale ratios.
Regards,
IanT
Posting things as facts when the blinkers are on and the facts not properly represented on the G3 website really irks when you then get repeatedly criticised for making an observation.
In the absence of specifically stating the scale ratio on the G3 website and its corresponding technical pages leaves everything open to debate.
Gentlemen, please, can we draw a line under this and agree to disagree.
There appears to be a range of views, particularly in the "commercial" world of G3, as to how the scale is to be referenced/defined.....the example of "Garden Rail" insisting on 1:25 (even though I explained to the author of the article, Mark Thatcher, that 1:26 was the scale used to construct the "Sentinel" locos) was to fit in with their inflexible method of "tagging" articles by scale (they use 1:25 for G3 since it is used by them for "G-scale" articles).
John
We model 2 1/2" to the 4'8 1/2". I expect the society to reflect this ammendment in their next website update. /s
UPDATE: Trevor made contact through moderation channels and apologises, having made this comment "tongue in cheek" and, on reflection, having realised it was probably unhelpful to have done so.
JC
Well, I assumed the "criticism" of Doddy was intended to be humrous, and will continue to believe that.
However, I would like to be pedantic over:
Quote from: John Candy on Jul 25 2019 09:01
... measuring and cutting, material shrinkage (resin and plastics) all contrive to introduce errors....
I would simply like to point out that some metals expand more than plastics or resins. I have a resin van with brass door runners and in the blazing heat a few years ago the brass expanded and buckled - the resin stayed put.
Mike
Personally I'm a keen supporter of using the "correct" scale factor of 22.6, and it rather irks me to see 22.5 on the Society banner. Maybe it's a mistake of course, and it's not the only one on those banners. In support of the people who put them together some years ago, I know as a former design draughtsman just how easy it is to painstakingly put together a drawing title or note, only to find it mis-spelt as a result of the slow and laborious process of creating it. What I cannot excuse however is the lack of peer review before production of something so important as a society promotion banner.
Anyhow, we digress. The reason for 22.6 was succinctly made by IanT further up this page, and this is why we ought to be quoting the magic 22.6 number in our technical standards. Whilst we need not mandate this scale, it is only right and proper that we acknowledge and promote its use as the technically correct number. The measurements of 17/32" or 13.5mm to the foot need to be placed in context as approximate conversions.
I think that's all I have to say on the matter, so, happy modelling!
Tim
Mike,
The shrinkage to which I referred was in respect of the mould-making process and resin-casting process itself, where the standard advice is to allow for possible shrinkage of up to 1 percent when producing the patterns.
I have also observed that after extended time (a few years) some silicone moulds can themselves shrink (seems to be a consequence of leeching of the "oily" component in the mix). Certain brands of silicone and resin seem to suffer more than others.
As an apparent example of the shrinkage problem, I was tackled by Peter Korzelius at the 2018 AGM who had bought one of the Flexikit LMS "steel" van bodies from you with the intention of mounting it on one of his steel underframes. He said the dimensions of sides and ends weren't matching/consistent and he had difficulty assembling it. I explained that I had supplied the moulds and each side and end would have been cast from the same mould and the only explanations I could offer were that either the resin was from a different batch/mix or there was a delay in casting the second side/end, during which the mould had shrunk.
Regarding whitemetal/pewter casting, I read somewhere that, when cooling, the castings expand (not contract as I would have assumed) although I have never encountered any significant/observable evidence of that. I guess the expansion is akin to water/ice and the molten metal taking on a crystalline structure.
I remember you telling me about the problem with the LSWR van door at the time it was introduced (a good few years ago now)! I subsequently altered my original pattern/mould to cater for a plastic card runner fixed to the resin with brass rivets.
Regards,
John.
Well John, I am amazed because those castings were done within the space of a few days, and odd that he never mention it to me. Think they were a gift as a trial actually, rather than "bought".
But, without wishing to prolong the 1:22.6 debate further(!) what I really meant was that its not only resin models which expand and contract - metal and wood do too, at least as much.
Mike
Quoteodd that he never mention it to me. Think they were a gift as a trial actually, rather than "bought".
Mike,
I guess that, being a gift, he didn't like to appear ungrateful.
I saw the body (which had been assembled around a plywood box) on his table at the show and (out of curiosity, since it looked to be from my original patterns) asked from whence it had come. He said from you and then became critical of the quality. At that point I explained that I had made the patterns and moulds and that my own examples fitted perfectly and that it would be odd if the sides and ends were dimensionally different since they would have been cast in the the same moulds.
I don't suppose you can now remember the time of year or temperature at which the parts were cast but I do wonder whether a great variation in ambient temperature and/or humidity could have been the cause.
Regards,
John.
No, sorry. I don't remember. It was about five years ago!
Quote from: IanT on Jul 25 2019 09:49
If you are going to post things as "facts" then let's try to stick to the actual scale ratios.
I see where you are coming from now, many thanks for pointing this out to me, I apologise to you.
Doddy
No problem Doddy - I didn't set out to upset you and I'm sorry if I did so.
There are not too many places (online) that people can find out about G3 and this is one of them - so it's important we try to keep the key facts both simple and consistent here for anyone new to our gauge/scale.
I'll be looking at that webpage and will endeavour to make it clearer.
Regards,
IanT
Having been brought up in a totally Metric environment... I will admit that it is easier for me to think of G3 as a gauge of 6.35cm rather than 2.5". I have always worked from direct Metric reduction by dividing everything by 22.6 or previously 19.1 Although the model people look best at 24th scale(?) As fas as possible I have tried to make my models to the correct scale, but if there are a suitable set of plans at 22.5 -I will unhesitatingly use them!!!
Most of my drawing are taken from "00" scale A4 spiral bound books. These are I have to assume are as accurate as possible. Some of the plans I have will produce a good model but not a scale model. The Chriss Barron; Peak and 2-nol are a case in point. Both are too short. But both are the correct length not to "side swipe" another wagon if taken on 3.3m radius curves.
I have built a Golwe locomotive in SM32 which was over 118cm long but would corner a std SM32 setcurve with ease. This worked only because of the sheer bloody mindedness of the builder to produce a working Golwe articulated. The same thing happened when I built the Tasmanian J Hagans. Only by very close scale modelling did both systems work.
Absolute scale fidelity does have its place and without the drawings from Eurfort for the Hagans nothing would have worked. However I believe it is better to have a well designed working model than an exact shelf piece.
As to how the Hagans system works - it uses articulation via levers with moving fulcrums, the principle of a Golwe makes sense only after several shots of Polish Proof Spirit, but essentially it get longer the more it corners...
Regards
Ralph
I just draw all my drawings to the scale of 13.5mm/ft.
Or for imperial drawings in inches, multiply inches by 1.125 to get the mm I need.
No need to ever think about how best to round a fraction of a scale. Besides, even our true gauge scale has its own setbacks. One being the B2B and subsequent chassis width. No point drawing 1:1 if its not going to work anyway. Best not waste the energy and instead get it right first time!
Hell, my American required significant revisions as I was working off fully dimesioned drawings and completely forgot the chassis width needed narrowing, which changed the cylinders, footplate, cab sidesheets, frame crossmembers, pilot, and firebox just to name a few!
Quite often Ralph leaves me in the dust with new ideas and topics, the
Hagans and
Golwé locomotives are no exception and appear to be in a league of their own.
Die Preußische T13, Bauart Hagans.(https://i.ibb.co/hfmR2Kx/Preu-ische-T13-Bauart-Hagans.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hfmR2Kx)
(https://i.ibb.co/Fz6Fxvh/Preu-ische-T13-Bauart-Hagans-Heck.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fz6Fxvh)
French Golwe locomotive for Ivory Coast railways.(https://i.ibb.co/cFrT607/Golwe-locomotive.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cFrT607)
Hagans Tasmanian J class(https://i.ibb.co/dG4VTbQ/hagans-Tasmainia-J.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dG4VTbQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRMSSC6/Hagans-patent-loco-small.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRMSSC6)
References:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golw%C3%A9_locomotive
- https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maschinenfabrik_Christian_Hagans
The main source of information I have are the actual book detailing the Tasmanian J and "Meyer and Meyer like articulated locomotives".
For those of a strong stomach could I recommend "The Self Site" as it is called. The pages on "unusual locomotives" and "the museam of retrotech" will provide stomach upsetting information...
Regards
Ralph
Having used this software application for many years now, I have recently added the G3 ratio scale.
The software allows user configuration of different scales and makes the conversion from one scale to another possible, cross referencing the actual 1:1 dimensions in metric and imperial measures at the same time.
(https://i.ibb.co/6mtKsMm/HWFG3.png) (https://ibb.co/6mtKsMm)
I am about ready to start assembling some Gloucester Bogies supplied by Wallsall Models, designed by Keith Smith.
(https://i.ibb.co/jf0g9qN/Gloucester-Bogie.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jf0g9qN)
Question is how to retain compensation of the sideframes? - assuming that the loose fit of the bearings is designed to do this - what design of bogie transom/crossbeam goes in between the two sideplates? The photo below shows the Walsall Models Orienstein & Koppel bogie sideframes which I suggest would work in the same way as my Gloucester Bogie design.
(https://i.ibb.co/HtkH8H1/DSCN3484.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HtkH8H1)
Any ideas from more experience modellers who have used these products and/or have knowledge of compensated bogie designs would be welcome here?
Many thanks in advance.
Doddy, my suggestion, if you want to use those side-frames and have compensation, is to have a piece of bent flat bar, with the ends bent down, joining the two via a new central hole drilled into each frame. The fastener for each connection would be left slightly loose and thus enabled to pivot, thus providing the compensation. A simple short screw and self-locking nut and a few flat washers would be needed. I have tried this method with some prototype Blue Pullman bogies, but discovered that I hadn't left quite enough rotational travel on each pivot so severe camber changes were not totally accommodated. In principle it seemed to work ok.
Cheers, Tim
Ignore the gears and you should see the basic principle.
Tim
(https://i.ibb.co/VNrT4y7/C46963-CB-C870-4704-91-AA-E4-A4-D23-F1254.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VNrT4y7)
Working with Tim on him supplying his Slaters wheelsets for a couple of wagon designs, I thought I'd share my research with you all.
The Orenstein & Koppel 'Foster Yeoman' stone wagon uses bogie sideframes which are readily available from Wallsall Models, and the British Oxygen Company 100ton tank wagon uses either Gloucester MKIII or Gloucester MKIV bogie sideframes available from the same supplier.
What I only realised this morning, is that the 3'- 0" Slaters wheels Tim commissioned for his 'Andrews' trucks are almost a nats-whisker within reach of being identical. At 952.5mm diameter for the O&K wheel, that makes for a 3' 1 1/2" wheel.
Tims wheels are 40.8mm dia and I require 42.146mm dia, The 1.3mm difference is not going to notice in Gauge 3 I think.
More interestingly, Tim choose a disc wheel which with added interest seems to be the preferred wheel type and diameter fitted on modern wagons built for British Railways in my chosen era. (1960s-1980s).
Whether the bogie is manufactured by ESC, Gloucester R.C&W, Sambre et Meuse or Schlieren they all use a variation of disc wheels either with or without brake discs fitted that can easily be represented by Tims newly commisioned wheelsets.
(https://i.ibb.co/YBYwZ5N/Bobs-Bogies-Named.png) (https://ibb.co/YBYwZ5N)
D
Viewing the latest reports from Italy and America, I had a wake up call this last week, where in having some medical work done on fitting a new gold cap, the dentist was astonished about the lack of PPE gear issued by the company I am working for. I work in the transport industry carrying clinical staff and scientists to Milton Park Medical Labs whom are working on the Corona Virus.
My week started flippantly with this photoshop of a train full of New Yorkers leaving the MTBA's Corona Yards, New York City.
(https://i.ibb.co/LCpGBPF/New-Yorkers-Escaping-the-Coronavirus-3-2020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LCpGBPF)
Working from home this weekend, I am now getting seriously geared up for the increase in the spread of Corona Virus. Medical specification protective eye goggles, filtered facemasks and latex gloves being the order of the day.
(https://i.ibb.co/cXcxMxR/7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cXcxMxR)
(https://i.ibb.co/dGrDsqv/s-l1600.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dGrDsqv)
So far - I'm free of infection, I hope you are too!
(https://i.ibb.co/S7fMYML/15853082072395506971529070022693.png) (https://ibb.co/S7fMYML)
The worlds leading Korean professor who has spent 30 years specialising in treating infectious diseases talks about Corona Virus.
Including
- The three principle methods of infection transmission
- Methods of protection
In short, wear facemasks, wash your hands regularly, socially isolate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7aX5hksU
The lastest video update from Professor Woo-Joo Kim
A brilliant assessment on the Corona Virus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwoNP9QWr4Y
You 'may' need to watch the first interview with Professor Kim for context:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7a... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAk7aX5hksU)
As mentioned to the Peak builders group, recent activity at RAF Upper Heyford has produced some shocking images. 10 former concrete bunkers that used to house the USAF's F-111 nuclear bombers are now being converted into a morgue for 6000 caskets. Also scientists at Milton Park are developing compounds to dissolve Calcium.
In the first video Professor Kim explains why cremation is very neccessary.
(https://i.ibb.co/X7SkZ2Z/0b7af230-77ee-11ea-b907-d46a6e9d12de.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X7SkZ2Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/0Vp4pfY/0b676a30-77ee-11ea-bf9f-1b25af37e26b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Vp4pfY)
dr sarah jarvis recommends not wearing a facemask, as it can lead to false sense of security and reduce your social distancing. it's only recommnded if you are working and have a cough to prevent your cough being carried forward. the risk from touching your face to adjust the mask is MUCH higher risk thing to do. additionally,persons buying masks is leading to our NHS not being able to secure purchase of their own and they are now looking at small buisnesses to re deploy their usual output to trying to make more masks and PPE.
i may be wrong, but generally sarah jarvis is bang on.
Ashley
Professor Kim is the worlds leading infectious desease treatment specialist having lead teams for SARS and MERS in the middle east and asia. South Korea has the lowest infection rates globally under his guidance.
Sorry, who was that Dr Sarah Jarvis again?
Think I'll put my trust in Professor Kim thanks very much for nothing.
The universal wearing of face masks to stop droplet aerosolization is the single most important and most effective public health measure possible to stop the spread of coronavirus. It is also the cheapest. Yet its implementation is virtually non-existent in western countries.
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2020/03/30/czechs-go-global-masksforall-campaign-after-nationwide-adoption/
In South Korea, Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore the near universal wearing of masks in public is the reason why their case growth curves are so markedly different from that of almost all other nations.
Full marks to the Czech's. USA, Britain, France and Germany (to mention just a few) get the global Darwin Awards for stupidity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=jZtEX2-n2Hc&feature=emb_logo
https://darwinawards.com/rules/
On page 41 of Robin Barnes tomb, Locomotives That Never Were, is a colour plate of the proposed LMSR 2-Do-2 Electric locomotive Number 7000 named 'Wizard' leaving Lancaster Station with the LNWR's 1903 Royal Train Saloons.
The E.S. Cox design envisaged an electric locomotive that could pull a 500ton train between Crewe and Carlisle, a Swiss Ae3/6 rebodied to fit the LNWR/LMS loading gauge. I have HO scale models of the Ae4/7 to base such designs on, but have no knowledge whatsoever of coachbuilding LNWR saloons.
If anybody has any knowledge of published articles (in any scale) regarding the construction of LNWR coaches I'd appreciate a few pointers. Preferably remaining with traditional coach building techniqies and not 3D printing.
Many thanks in advance.
Robert
Robert,
As we both lie here and enjoy our wonderful free food... I am familiar with the illustration in the book you mention. But rather than build it as 2-D0-2 I think a 2-A-C0-2 might be a better bet for cornering. Memory stirs -but I think there is an LNWR carriage in the sheets provided by Locomotive Design(?) These would be plywood with metal framed underbodies. His plans are "reasonable" but as I have found out -check it!!!!
Is it going to have a working Buchli drive -or are you going to chicken out!?!?!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxKJEYQbI4E
regards
ralph
Beware Robert, LNWR 12-wheeled carriages are very complex. As a start there are recessed end vestibules with rounded corners, several layers on the side and heavily recessed windows. On the plus side there are many drawings available and a few real ones to look at.
Mike
This is not a 12-wheeler but the same style.
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=582
Mike
Quote from: MikeWilliams on May 13 2020 22:36
This is not a 12-wheeler but the same style.
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=582 (http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=582)
Mike
Thank you Mike, it appears to be easily accessable as well providing this lockdown ends and I can travel to Polhill without being stopped by the travel police. Don't want them to think I am out for a day at the seaside.
I noticed that two LNWR Royal Saloons are at the NRM, so another outing on hold.
After a brief sojourn in hospital, I'm not allowed anywhere for the next three months anyway. so home research is the order of the day.
Many thanks
Robert
As a kid I used to walk down to Euston Station from Kings Cross, observing locomotives in KX, St Pancras and then the AC electric classes 81 to 87. In those days both the aluminium E3xxx and painted TOPS numbering systems were in use.
Taking the Class 501 3rd rail electric multiple units out to Willesden Junction, I was always enamoured with the interweaving of the various tunnels at Primrose Hill.
(https://i.ibb.co/8XHdSfn/Primrose-Hill-Map.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8XHdSfn)
After many years search I have finally found a link to engineering drawings of the proposed HS2 infrastructure in and around Euston. Photos of the area in steam days revealed LNWR Type 5 signal boxes standing proud over the 3rd rail tunnels. Camden steam MPD is now occupied by sidings for suburban EMU's, the old LNWR/LMS crew accomodation is now used by various media companys.
Chalk Farm freight terminal has been long demolished along with it's extensive fan of sidings, Gilbeys Gin distillery has been demolished along with the winding station that hauled the early Birmingham & Manchester trains out of Euston station up Camden Bank. Only one hydraulic accumulator tower exists today with some of the underground tunnels of the area.
(https://i.ibb.co/0VNLzSY/PHT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0VNLzSY)
The 'Rat Hole' reminds me of Tim Gleed-Owens problems with tunnel heights as it is now unused and has not enough height to install overhead catenary. This line used to run underneath the whole area from north of Primrose Hill Station to the other side of the line to run empty stock to Eustons LNWR built carriage shed. Sadly now demolished for the HS2 project.
(https://i.ibb.co/k3mN7XB/LNWR-Sheds.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k3mN7XB)
The area has been extensively remodelled from steam days, so if anybody has any information on track diagrams for the area down past Camden Steam Motive Power Depot and Chalk Farm freight depot I'd like to know about them.
There are 2 LNWR 12 wheel coaches on display in Rewley Road at the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre one being a dining saloon with the clerestory and the other a slightly later build where the clerestory was replaced by an elliptical roof. When/if the centre reopens after covid they are both easily accessed as they are very much a core part of the public display.
https://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/lnwr_no77.htm (https://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/lnwr_no77.htm)
https://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/lnwr_no112.htm (https://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/lnwr_no112.htm)
Robert,
Let me know what type of 12-wheeler(s) you want to build as they vary a great deal. I probably have most of the information you need here. You probably know that I have a train of eight myself.
In broad terms there were:
Dining Saloons with narrow, intermediate or wide vestibules.
Sleeping Saloons the same
The American Special WJCS set train which was all 12-wheeled except for a kitchen car and two brake vans
The 2pm Corridor set train which was all 12-wheeled in separate parts for Glasgow, Edinburgh etc.
The two Royal Saloons
And that is all. So give some thought to what you want to model.
Mike
Hello Mike,
Many thanks for the kind offer, I was not aware that you had a rake of coaches either.
First of all, rather unusually, I know absolutely nothing about the LNWR. The project in mind is to model the Buchli drive electric locomotive planned by the LMS for the Crewe Carlisle section of the WCML and a Type 5 LNWR signal box as per its use on the Primrose Hill Tunnels.
Robin Barnes colour plate depicts the locomotive leaving Lancaster with the 1903 Royal Train cars, some of which are 8 wheeled and others 12 wheeled. (PM sent)
Since the locomotive was intended to be built as a fleet of locomotives and named in a manner like the LNWR did and since the Crewe Carlisle electrification was to be driven south as it was in BR times I have a modellers licence to look at the potential of either replicating Robin Barnes Royal Train colour plate or a general WCML train formation with 12 wheeled stock.
Modelling the coaches in the LMS period may lead me into loosing the coach colours to LMS red instead of LNWR plum and I would really like the loco in LMS red and the coaches in LNWR livery. I would say that I have not found sufficient evidence for what I am looking for to say when that overlap would have occured.
Golden Age Models have the Royal Train Cars listed as
- King's Saloon No.800 (12 wheel).
- Queen's Saloon No.801 (12 wheel).
- First Dining Saloons (12 wheel) No.76 and 77.
- First Sleeping Saloon (12 wheel) No.477.
- Semi-Royal Saloons (8 wheel) No.803, 804, 805,806, 807 and 808.
- Brake-End Saloons (8 wheel) No.5154 and 5155
Many thanks.
Robert
Yes Robert, that is a typical formation for the Royal Train, though it did change depending on who was in it.
The LNWR Royal Train was kept in LNWR livery at the request of the royal family until the LMS insisted it be changed during WWII as it was otherwise something of an obvious target!
Attached about half of my train on test at Ampthill a few years ago. They are ex-Mike May and Roger McLellan and represent the 2pm Corridor. One day I'll build a pair of Brake End carriages for it.
Finally, have you worked out how much track space your 5 x 65ft 6in and 8 x 57ft carriages will take up?
Here's a promise - if you build it I'll lend you my Claughton for a short spell as a change from the HaupWerkstatte.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/L0K0w8F/G3-2017-05-13-Ampthill-16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L0K0w8F)
Mike, I'm sure I have some video of your '2pm Corridor Express' on one of my YouTube offerings; I'll check which one.
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Here are some photo of one of the Dining Saloons used in the Royal Train sometimes. Gives an idea of the complication when making a model.
http://www.lnwrhg.com/diner249/diner249_pages.php
Mike
Mike
It maybe a statement of the obvious, but complex subjects that are worth modelling can be a daunting prospect at the outset, but when you breakdown the subject to the individual components the burden becomes easier.
Or another way of looking at it is we must admit to being a bunch of masochists who enjoy a challenge, and that's all part of the fun.
I have tried tiddlywinks, but it just doesn't cut the mustard!!
Mike
Speaking as a person regarded by friends and family as borderline insane... I have to agree with Robert! The whole entity is dazzlingly complex. BUT it does break down into std parts that could be fabricated.
Looking at the troupe of robots beside me, The Reprap can print: window surrounds, buffers, aerovents. The laser can etch cutting plans into a sheet of A4 plywood or templates in card -as it has done with the 2-NOL. The CAM router can cut MDF and Ply sections -to make formers to bend wire. The ornate brass pierceings would have to be done via photo etching. This is a subject that I only know from making my own PCBs and I doubt simply dropping a sheet of brass into the Ferric Chloride solution and shaking the bottle -is the method used!!!
I would class it as a MONSTER PROJECT one I would be delighted to help you with!!!
regards
ralph
For those that like complicated projects, the latest sTraffic designed vertical platform screen doors are being tested on the platform of Vanves-Malakoff station in the Paris region.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBu0dHy77uc
Doddy
Having followed product developments, eBay sales and recent new products I have to say that the Plan V is rather nice.
At 1:22.5 scale running on 45mm track, I wonder what it would look like on Gauge 3 track?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RphXymLS3og
Stoom and Spoor NS1000 locomotive with Plan E coaches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oTFK4EMRmA
Yep, it's that time again to change versions of Operating System software. My current set-up uses Windows 7 and many of my audio and CAD editing programs require Windows 10 or MAC to run on.
A new Antek 300 case is being populated with a new CPU (the old one does not support Windows 10) a new Graphics card and several high speed disk drives (7500rpm) for audio and video editing and a solid state drive (SSD) for the Operating System.
One of the drivers on the audio side is driven by the requirement to multitrack audio for video editing software in the production of media for film, TV, web apps and other services. But my hobby does not get left out either.
(https://i.ibb.co/2Wn6Bzb/daw.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Wn6Bzb)
Since I have established the use of MIDI controlled Digital Sampler hardware for model railway locomotives. The new
DAW (
Digital
Audio
Workstation) editing software allows me to have a better graphical and audio representation of multiple recording streams which were recorded in synchronisation with each other.
In the case of diesel locomotives like this Deltic, the engine compartment, exhaust, air intake and braking system all had microphones to capture the unique howling of the air intake.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHKTBvr0hk8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHKTBvr0hk8)
COVID Kindness: Following the recent delivery of John Candys unused
GWR Railcar bogie sideframes, and his specially designed radiators and ancillary castings he kindly sent me, the first audio project to be re-activated is of a 'CD quality' sound card for the GWR Railcar.The GWR Railcar specification includes the following sounds.
- Main breaker switch on/off
- Engine start/stop and running sequences 2 x B.U.T. (A.E.C.) engines
- Main and backup sets of Hi-Lo GWR Brass Air Horns
- Davies and Metcalfe Brake application and release sequences
- 4-speed epicyclic gearbox running sounds in sync with dynamic engine note exhaust changes
- Driver and guards bells
- Door slam
This project will allow a DAW plug-in called
Maxx-Bass to be used.
(https://i.ibb.co/DVRbmXq/maxxbass.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVRbmXq)
Maxx-Bass is a Plug-in that uses
psychoacoustics to alter the character of reproducing the Bass reproduction characteristics of audio. It does this by reassembling the Bass component of the audio within higher frequencies, thus masking the human brains ability to process Bass frequencies and allowing Bass restricted hardware to reproduce the Bass component through the higher frequency band. Thus it makes it ideal for model locomotive sound design as the miniaturised speakers can more effectively present the Bass component within the frequency response curve of the speaker.
TAFN
Robert
Last week WaveWalker 1 arrived at Dawlish to assist in phase 2 of the Dawlish seawall rebuild.
(https://i.ibb.co/tZx5j0x/5faadd19b2ac5f4ee8140068-o-U-v2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZx5j0x)
Network Rails project description https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8ZpJol1c3g
In action - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM8XILynlAU
And in model form -
(https://i.ibb.co/gtbbSz9/Fugro-Wavewalker-50-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gtbbSz9)
https://www.wavewalkerbv.com/
Using the Deepl app suggested by John Branch, letters have been sent to Kawasaki, Nippon Steel and Nankai Railway Co after discovering that the wheels I need for this EMU are defined as Type A Corrugated. I am getting closer to following the forums members advice and having a die produced for plastic insertion moulding. http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,2671.msg17617.html?PHPSESSID=30581b76de730da22ba078c0920c7659#msg17617
Whilst waiting on suppliers for my BR Class 45 Peak, I am playing with Arduino processors driving miniature LED displays with a view to recreating very specific, and sometimes very ornate Japanese headcode displays. In the case of the Rapi:t that train uses roller blinds for which I now have the destination board graphics ready. Namba Station and Nankai Airport
Elon Musk's SPACEX launch facility located in Boca Chica, Texas, USA missed stacking Starship #20 and Heavy Booster #4 for a photo op by one day due to excessive wind speed > 5 Knots. The photo op was timed for celebrating what would have been Neil Armstrong's 91st birthday - yesterday.
Starship #SN20 (black bit) and Booster #4 (silver bit) were stacked together, making the world's largest and most powerful space rocket, easily exceeding NASA's Saturn 5 in height and with twice the power of Apollo space launches.Starship #20 has six Raptor engines - 3 x sea level and 3 x vacuum for space flight to Mars.Booster #4 has 29 x Raptor engines, 9 x on rotating gimbals, 20 x fixed.
The whole process can be seen here on this video channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2_dfvRZ4M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2_dfvRZ4M)
2:54:45 The lift starts
01:20:30 TOUCHDOWN Starship SN20 mates with Booster 4
(https://i.ibb.co/RCK7ygd/CONTACT-06-AUG2021.png) (https://ibb.co/RCK7ygd)
(https://i.ibb.co/3fHK2Tb/E7-o-Zs-SWQAExz6x.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fHK2Tb)
(https://i.ibb.co/r63GpYG/TTW-06-AUG2021.png) (https://ibb.co/r63GpYG)
Eclectic Electric Nameplate (photo for deriving etched brass artwork)
(https://i.ibb.co/98S9LTK/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/98S9LTK)
And CAB (Virgin liveried Gauge 1 models sat next to a new Gauge 3 print)
(https://i.ibb.co/0fyxt0q/G3-Class-87-Cab.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0fyxt0q)
(https://i.ibb.co/4ZB3HYP/2021-NOV30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4ZB3HYP)
very nice. it seems that a new member has joined g3 on the strength of building an ald class 25. so that shows there is interest in modern (80's!) traction. i'll let him know about this class 87, looks great thus far
Put a Gauge 1 locomotive inside it? ::)
(https://i.ibb.co/HKkkdPY/06-DEC2021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HKkkdPY)
Not that eccentric!
Remember the Guinness brewery in Dublin .... the standard gauge locos were narrow gauge steam locos placed into a standard gauge chassis.
There were other examples of this practice.
http://www.museum.alibaba.sk/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/gaugechange/gaugechange.htm
John.
Yes, I know I have been documenting the Class 87, but the Class 86 is not far away from final CAD and both machines pulled MKII coaches out of Euston (London), which have B4 bogies and look like these...These are O gauge, but the Gauge 3 variant is almost ready for their creation on a 3D resin print bed.
(https://i.ibb.co/2yBjbYv/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2yBjbYv)
Along with a bogie mounted axle generator as an option
(https://i.ibb.co/nzfQVsY/B4-Bogie-Generator.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nzfQVsY)
1st Class Seats
(https://i.ibb.co/yNtWFvC/BR-Mk2-1st-CLASS-COACH-SEATS.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yNtWFvC)
Roof Vents (MKI and MKII type)
(https://i.ibb.co/f0pPyt7/MK1-MK2-COACH-ROOF-VENTS-x20-TYPE-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f0pPyt7)
great, i can hear the piped music as the hum of the electric arrives in glasgow central !
Class 87 bogies
(https://i.ibb.co/Bj3pHRG/Bogies-big.png) (https://ibb.co/Bj3pHRG)
Utter and complete *ENVY*!!!!
Regards
Ralph
A box of parts to be shipped and assembled in the New Year.(https://i.ibb.co/88JhpKh/Class-87-for-boxing.png) (https://ibb.co/88JhpKh)
- A Class 87 kit with single arm pantograph and roof mounted fire protection tanks.
- An 87/0 or 87/1 version can be built from this kit of parts.
- This one will be 87 101 STEPHENSON. (A Thyristor controlled locomotive in real life.)
- 3D CAD parts were developed from measurements made of 87 035 at Crewe Heritage Centre.
87 035 just restored to Virgin Trains livery(https://i.ibb.co/3pT47fL/87035-Crewe.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3pT47fL)
hmmm, so are the kits available to other members ? would you like anything putting in market place etc ??? ash
Quote from: AshleyW on Dec 29 2021 12:48
hmm, so are the kits available to other members ? Would you like anything putting in marketplace etc ??? ash
Ashley, sadly not on this occasion. I will not be marketing this model as it is a Commission for which I do not own the IPR or CAD files, - and it is also printed to 2 1/2" Gauge (14 mm/foot) a scale in which some members would baulk at using. Given the poor (read low) sales of ALD Models I think it unlikely it would make any commercial sense to go to market with a prototype that has less following in OO gauge mainstream modelling let alone 2 1/2" Gauge.
- This locomotive 'kit' is a 2 1/2" Gauge development prototype, serial number 14MM/#0001
- This particular model is printed to 14 mm scale. Not as per Gauge 3 Society technical specifications, except for wheel profile and track dimensions.
- Only two other models have been built, both in Gauge One.
- I will not be marketing this model as I do not own the IPR or CAD files.
- I commissioned this from the models' developer, whom anybody can contact directly on Facebook.
- The 'kit' does not contain any running gear, as I have yet to develop all those parts in metal.
- Sounds for both the Tap Changer and Thyristor variants have been made and like 'Lion' (my own design Class 85) a suitable sound card is almost ready. (Covers most classes of WCML Diesels & Electrics).
- Work not yet started on a suitable interface controller to operate all the motorised accessories via R/C or DCC. I.E. Air brake cylinder motion, pantographs, head and tail lights. Cab instrument panel lighting and opening cab doors.
87 101 'STEPHENSON' as a test and development platform will take over from my original plan to build the ADTRANZ 128X locomotive which was to be built to test multi-brushless motors, power controllers, sound systems and hand operated controllers.
First prints are coming off the 3D Resin Printer for the MKII Coach bogies.
(https://i.ibb.co/v1ScGVy/MKII-Bogie.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v1ScGVy)
First 14mm scale 2 1/2" Gauge MKII bogies for evaluation are in the post. Rather than using an FDM printer, these are produced in a Resin Bath on the Elegoo Saturn 3D Printer.
(https://i.ibb.co/jkTK40z/14mm.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkTK40z)
MKII bogies in 2 1/2" Gauge, I am really impressed with 3D printing technology these days.
(https://i.ibb.co/gPNDf6R/20220111-201035.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gPNDf6R)
(https://i.ibb.co/X8K7mPG/20220111-201239.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X8K7mPG)
(https://i.ibb.co/1rtbsLV/20220111-201244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rtbsLV)
Class 87 cab in 2 1/2" Gauge using FDM printing technology.
(https://i.ibb.co/ysQdKhd/20220112-165840.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysQdKhd)
Designer Portrait: Model Train Designer Kees-Jan van Vessem Builds Incredibly Detailed Scale Model Worlds by Fabian | October 12, 2016
(https://i.materialise.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/scale-model-3d-print-1-1024x696.jpg)
by Fabian | October 12, 2016
With 3D printing, you can create entire new worlds. And that's exactly what Dutch railway and model train designer Kees-Jan van Vessem has been doing with his "Rail-Kees (http://www.rail-kees-webshop.nl/)" label and webshop for years now. We haven't seen many designers that put more effort, precision and passion into their designs than Kees-Jan. That's why we met up with this talented designer and learned more about the passion that drives him, as well as how he produces one-of-a-kind scale models.
Kees-Jan's passion for collecting scale models started in his childhood. In his thirties, however, he decided to start designing his own models. And we're not talking about peanuts here. Over the years Kees-Jan has created more than 10,000 scale models of trains and trams.(https://i.materialise.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/train-model-3d-print-1024x633.jpg)Talk about detailed scenery. Photo by Kees-Jan van VessemHowever, it's not just about quantity. His designs also feature an incredible level of detail, and Kees-Jan makes sure that they are perfectly painted (by hand) and that they include the right lighting, smoke or sound effects (check out the video above to listen to the sound effects of one of his model trains).
Modern 3D printing technology helped the scale modeller to make his design come to life faster and more precisely. It even enabled him to print designs that he could never make with traditional manufacturing methods.(https://i.materialise.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/3d-printed-scale-model-train-1024x721.jpg)Photo by Kees-Jan van Vessem(https://i.materialise.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/miniature-3d-printed-scale-models-1024x604.jpg)Photo by Kees-Jan van VessemTypically, he starts drawing the models in 2D (with Inkscape (https://inkscape.org/en/)) and then transforms them into 3D models by using 3D modelling software like FreeCAD (http://www.freecadweb.org/). Once the model is finished, it goes right to our 3D printers here at i.materialise.com. In order to get the high-quality prints he needs, Kees-Jan typically goes with Gray Resin (https://i.materialise.com/3d-printing-materials/prime-gray), an affordable and smooth resin material for 3D printing or nylon plastics (Polyamide) (https://i.materialise.com/3d-printing-materials/polyamide): "If you use 3D printing in the right way it can save you a lot of time and also a lot of money. The material that is best for scale modelling is nylon (Polyamide) and Gray Resin", the designer told us.(https://i.materialise.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/train-3d-modelling.jpg)Kees-Jan van Vessem compares a 3D print in Polyamide with his virtual 3D modelTo people interested in designing their own scale models, Kees-Jan suggests you just get started with 3D modelling software. FreeCAD (the software he is using) is free to use and a great starting point. If you're interested in using this program yourself, we've got the right tutorial for you here (https://i.materialise.com/blog/freecad-tutorial-review/). Kees-Jan recommends starting with basic forms, especially with the help of a 2D sketch of the model, and then work your way up to more sophisticated models. For the printing process you don't even need to own a 3D printer yourself, our online 3D printing service with more than 100 materials and finishes (https://i.materialise.com/3d-printing-materials) and instant pricing based on your 3D file (https://i.materialise.com/3dprintlab) has got you covered.