Hi all,
I'm planning on selling some of my narrow gauge kit (gauge 3 is a bug that bites hard!) and depending how much I make am looking at a few of the GRS kits. I may get a southern PLV, GWR autocoach or one of the Gresley coaches. To be honest the Gresley will be the most out of place but I do like them.
I'm just wondering if any of you have built any of these and did they go together well?
Simon
Simon,
I have built the SR PLV and I rate it as one of their better kits but it does benefit from some extra detailing.
The autocoach I have not built but by all accounts it is a bit of a pig (poorly fitting parts and very thin castings liable to distortion).
I have a Gresley all third kit but have not yet touched it ..... assuming it goes together OK, the only problem may be finishing in simulated LNER teak livery (in my enthusiasm to buy one I forgot about the challenge of painting)!
John.
Hi
The Auto coach is a pig to build and definately not for the faint hearted. It does not evoen come with an interior. Whereas the SR suburban coaches do.
The SR suburban coaches are superior in every way to the GWR Auto coach. The bogies have full springing on each axle box. The coach sides are small modules like the Gresley coaches soyou can makethe specific coach that you want.
The 121 bubble car is a good kit and looks good when finished.
The GRS locos I have built includes 8750PT, 14XX Auto tank, LSWR 02'sx 3, LBSC Terriers x 5 and a Peckett kit which I turned into a Hawthorn Leslie.
The 117 unit which is a kit bash of a couple of 121 bubblecars is well documented here on the forum.
I have also done lots of work on GRS Prairies and B sets from repaints to rewiring and repairs.
Mark
Thanks Guys.
My coaching stock at the moment consists of one B set coach. This was S/H off E bay less bogies so I used the LNWR sides from Warsaw and homemade stretchers. Not right but cheap! I've also made a scratch built luggage van using GRS modules.
With the hopeful addition on the Pannier tank its made me look at what to get. I like the Auto coach but even in the GRS web photo its fallen apart (bowed in the middle). I have a feeling the pannier will be a tough job so don't think I will do the trailer and my curves will make buffer lock too easy when pushed but as you have said before Mark Can add a wire across the buffers.
I may get another B set coach then, and re-solder where it needs it. By concern then is they are heavy! I've come from narrow gauge and one thing LGB make is ball bearing wheel sets. One wonders if there could be a market for these for the free running!
If you want advice on ball/roller bearings, I suggest you speak with John Witts.
He is building/converting his stock with free-running bearings.
To run with your 2021, you could try some Bachmann conversions to 4-wheel GW style coaches.
Mark has done several conversions to LBSC-style stock.
John.
GRS kits - - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Also, have the buffer beams and bogie steps fallen off your 'B' Set yet?
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
The auto coaches I have built are capable of negotiating an absolute minimum of 7.5 foot radii without bufferlocking. In both push and pull operations.
Mark
Quote:
If you want advice on ball/roller bearings, I suggest you speak with John Witts.
Unquote:
He could just read it from the pages of the G3 mag.....
"An improvement to type..."
As most people know I am a fan of the old 1920's authors especially Henry Greenly. I have often studied his book "Model Railways" and there is one passage that has often intrigued me. It relates to the wheel and axle. As we all know the wheel has a 1:20 cone angle and a 1:10 flange angle. It is this variation in diameter as the wheel corners that actually forces the wheel and axle across the track as the wheel corners.
But there is another method...
This is to mount the wheels so that they move freely on the axle i.e. the axle is solid and the wheels rotate (even in opposing directions). I have tight radius curves due to the local geology/geography and it seemed that this, (to me), very simple solution would benefit me -as the wheels could then turn at quite differing rates of rotation without skewing or crabbing.
The axle is a length of 6 mm silver steel bar and the wheel is a 55 mm dia bogie wheel with the flange and tyre profile cut as per the G3 "codex". The two ball races have integral flanges and are a simple press fit into the 10 mm hole in the wheel. "Green" sleeve retaining compound was used to lock them into place. The shot below shows the wheel, the two ball races that fit either side of the hole, giving a "floating" wheel bearing system, (à la Ford Cortina!), and the grub screw collet that holds the position of the bearing assembly on the axle. Only two collets are required as the cornering forces are from the flange towards the centre of the axle.
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic92.jpg)
The advantages of this system are that there are no need for "working" axle boxes the axle does not move and thus does not need to be lubricated. The axle can be "sprung" across its length using simple springs or even heavy foam rubber...
You will have to accept some slight wheel wobble -as the position of the ball races responds to the accuracy of the axle placement of them. I have found no more than 0.5 mm wobble across a 55 mm wheel when using just finger pressure to seat the ball races -I suppose that a vice or small press would seat them better?
Here is the axle assembly in the "B" bogie of my loco, (a 2-C0-2).
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic93.jpg)
The ball race wheels move very smoothly and take a 7 feet 6 inch curve without wanting to "climb" the curve or "hunt" on a straight length of track. The ball races cost about £1.10p each so the cost is not excessive, and yes I have found them to be; "an improvement to type"...
I get my ball races from Technobots.
regards
ralph
Thanks Ralph, there is a great idea.
Gone for the southern van. Always like the look of them, 15% off helped.
When I was in they mentioned how once the GWR saddle tanks are sold there won't be anymore as they can't get the LGB wheels anymore.
The Great Western 1361 0-6-0ST comes with a ready-assembled chassis (instructions say that was done to ensure wheels were correctly quartered and coupling rods don't bind) which will make assembly a bit quicker (and will help a beginner).
The only problem (for rivet counters) with the LGB wheels is that they have identical balance weights moulded into the spokes of all wheels and they are not of the correct shape.
I looked closely at them but it would be a bit of a risk trying remove the mouldings (there was a time when the piercing saw would have been whipped out without a moment's hesitation....and that could still happen but it is not a high priority).
The missing parts for my kit arrived today (except for the cylinders which have been ordered by Michael) so it could be squeezed onto the bench before too long.
As a "starter" loco it would make a good choice, so if you are hestitating, don't, or the last few will have gone.
The price (with current 15% discount) is just 419GBP.
John.
Had a quick look over the van yesterday. The sides are very thinly cast at their ends and two ends are damaged. The problem is that these have bolt head detail on. Not sure weather they would swap it for such a small issue.
They will and they should ensure the kit is satisfactorily complete, especially when you think how much you are paying for it.
Mark
Like to say they swapped the sides for me, and am now waiting on a set of missing vents. To be fait they have been most helpfull.
GRS Horsebox,
Having made the horse box from a GRS kit I always felt it was quite robust as it has been run & run & run a lot.
However, since having my BR Mk 1 coaches & forming a consist with the horse box next to loco it has become apparent to me that the robustness of resin kits is in doubt. My horse box was put together with epoxy but today when hauling around my track with horse box next to loco & coaches to rear of horse box, the end panel ripped away & the resin cracked in the lower corner by the buffer beam :-[
This is a word of warning rather than a critiscm. So be away of the weight of the whole train & individual items when forming a consist because the strength of all vehicles is not equal. The longer the consist the heavier & stronger will the pull be on the drawbar.
Dave
454
You should also rod the couplings together to get the pull on the drawvar and not on the bodywork
I know that Mark, but some of my stock was built when I only had a small fleet of vehicles & are now quite a few years of age. All my latest in last 2 years are rodded together, but GRS never considered this in their designs & put all the stress on the resin body or the whitemetal buffer beam. To make things worse they had the transverse stiff spring wire buffing spring which over time has bent some of my whitemetal & resin kit vehicle ends.
Seems like time is taking it's toll. My flexikit wagons will not be affected by these problems as they have self contained buffers & rodded through drawbar.
Might one day get around to doing a mass refit of the early kits.
Dave
454
Dave,
Just to clarify when you say "the robustness of resin kits is in doubt". Please don't class all resin kits the same. Furthermore, I imagine the same problem could effect models made of plastic or wood - i.e. its the design rather than the material. All of my resin kits use either a one-piece body, or a one-piece skeleton - both of which take all stresses away from body joints.
I don't think it would be very difficult to fit a continuous drawbar (rodded), using the existing coupling hooks. That leads me to ask a related question - did you use the GRS whitemetal drawhooks supplied, and did they stand the strain when your epoxy didn't?
Mike
No I was not putting all resin kits in doubt I was simply stating that the resin kits that I had constructed in my early years of G3 kit building did not have the same structural strength of the later kits that I have made. Simply because I had built them to instruction supplied with the kit & not considered the forces that may at some future date be imparted on an unsupported, un-re-enforced or strengthened bodywork. The GRS kit never gave the option of the self contained buffer nor the rodded through drawbar. Hence all the forces acting on the end faces of the body. Thus contributing to an in-built weakness of design.
The Williams & Flexi kits that I have built all have self contained buffers & rodded through drawbars so have not suffered the same plight.
It is an observation that the GRS kits constructed in my early naivety of G3 kit construction should now need re-building to make them serviceable & fit for purpose.
To improve a GRS item of rolling stock will require new self contained buffers to be sourced & all coupling hooks to be through connected by a sprung loaded rod passing horizontally along the centre of the vehicle.
Dave
454
Dave, both the 'NE' 8Ton van and the LMS Cattle wagon I ran yesterday were through rodded (both Williams Models), I have also recently built a modified 'Brandbright' open wagon utilising the piano wire sprung buffers/couplings; this had a modified through rodded coupling too.
For resin kits (GRS, Williams, Slater's) all that is required is a hole drilled through the central cross-members to take either simple continuous rod, or prototype sprung coupling cradle if you're a nut-case like me!
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
The point that I have been trying to get across is that GRS kits that I have built to instructions do not mention anything about through rodding, nor are any parts supplied. It is only when a progression to other kit manufacturers is made that one realises that there are better ways of doing things. Hence the title of this thread.
In fact to do the job properly with a GRS kit it is necessary to chuck out the split buffers, the bits of stiff wire & do a purposeful coupling through rodding job. All this involves sourcing better alternative parts from other suppliers.
That is why when I get around to it my GRS wagon fleet will be suitably rebuilt.
All my Flexikits & Williams Kits have through rodding as these were built after the realisation that this is a better way to go. In the meantime I have my self imposed legacy of my early years wagon builds without this coupling feature built in to tolerate & put up with until the mods can be incorporated.
Dave
454
Dave,
Message received and understood.
I am not fully familiar with GRS kits but if the floor is substantial could you bolt some angle - say 1/2in by 1/2in, across the wagon behind the headstocks, with a slot for the coupling hook and two holes to bolt it to the floor. All drawbar pull would then be transferred to the floor and thence to t-other end of the wagon?
Just a suggestion which might be easier than replacing all the buffers and couplings?
Mike
Yes Dave,
Connect the hooks together via a central pull bar (perhaps including a spring box in the middle) as per the original wagons. A good way to go....
Regards,
IanT
Ian and Dave
This sounds to me to be a very good idea. Any pictures/drawings? I've a number of wagons that I intend to scratchbuild and I'd like to incorporate this idea into the build.
Regards
Jon
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Dave is saying that (at least some) GRS kits use a spring steel wire linked to each buffer and passing through a hole in the back of the hook? The one spring thereby serves both buffers and drawbar? This is common in smaller scales too.
That being the case, its not just a case of fitting a brass rod the length of the wagon threaded through the back of the hooks and with a single coil springs somewhere along its length - because at the same time you need to provide new buffing springs, and that may mean new buffers.
My suggestion is that although a solid brass angle transferring the pull through the floor will not provide continuous drawgear" (to use the correct expression), it would provide a structure strong enough to take the strain and not fall apart, without the need for new buffers, touching up the paint etc.
Mike
Mike
All of my buffers are or will be self contained and will not be connected via a spring wire to the draw hook. I've seen draw hook springing on full size drawings but was wondering how a version of this is transferred to the model.
Regards
Jon
Hi Jon,
In simple terms - it's two lengths of soft MS rod ('thin' coat hanger wire?) both threaded 10BA at one end. At the hook end, some brass tubing is sweated on (turn the rod down to fit the tube if you have to) and carefully slit with a junior hacksaw. This can then be 'flattened' for a flat ended hook (laser cut or etched) and then either bolted on (12BA) or soft soldered. If the hook is cast you may need to thin it by filing two flats on it....
If you've no tube to hand, a solution that involves slightly more work is to just through drill (and then slit) some brass rod. The 'box' is simply brass strip bent into a rectangle and soldered up at one end. Then you can gently grip it in a 4-jaw and drill clearance each end for the rodding. A small spring and a couple of 10BA nuts will complete the job.
I've no photos to hand and we are just off to see our new Grandson (Hooray - Train Sets!) but will try to get something here later...
Regards,
IanT
Jon
If this works, there should be a photo of a wooden underframe attached. The through coupling and coupling cradle run along the centre of the wagon. The coupling cradle is not fixed to the underframe and is free to move if required when under load.
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Dear Blagdon
With Ian's write up and your picture, you have both answered my question, thanks to you both.
The wagon looks interesting. What is it? I have scratchbuilt an early LBSCR carriage truck out of 'timber' and am very pleased with the result. I've still to apply the 'ironwork et al' and may get a chance of some time this summer to complete it.
Regards
Jon
Interesting reading, I've not had the same issues but is something I will bear in mind. I'm about to build the GRS siphon G and will strengthen it with angle along its length and maybe I should do something for the buffer beam. I've built the macaw about two years ago as per the instructions and it's started to bow in the middle so I'll have to strengthen this and gently bring it back to shape. I think the closer the size of the model is to the real thing the more 'real size' issues we get, however my railway staff have been told not to join a union! (//)
Jon, the wagon is a modified 'Brandbright' LNER 6-plank open kit, fitted with working end door and scratch-built underframe; the running gear is mainly from William's Models. More pics hopefully attached.
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Another construction photo;
Ian
Finally here is the finished wagon; the livery details are taken directly from a photograph of a whole rake of these vehicles leaving Camerton behind a GWR Pannier tank in the late 1930's. The picture was in the 'Great Western Journal' several years ago. (Beware Mark, this magazine is unsuitable for those of a Southern disposition!).
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Southern is the only railway for me. After all GWR stands for Gresley Was Right.
Mark
Mark, GWR not quite right, it means : "Gresley Was Regal"
Dave
454
Of course he was Dave. He learned his trade as a Premier Apprentice under F.W.Webb at Crewe on the LNWR. At least common sense prevailed in the end, and all products of both Swindon and Doncaster were painted in LNWR lined black.
Mike
Who're you trying to fool Blagdon, that piccie is of a real wagon!
Did you hand paint it? I feel a newsletter article coming on ...
Ian
Hello All
What an absolutely stunning bit of building , Would love to see more in the mag . A good P.O. wagon relay works in Gauge 3 .
John
Ian the 'Ed', I wrote an article describing this wagon's construction which was published in Newsletter No 72 (March 2008). An update following its lettering by John Dopson then went into Newsletter No 80 (March 2010 - back page for photo).
Mark, Dave and Mike, I thought 'GWR' stood for 'Gone Wrong & Rusty!', maybe why I no longer work in the Relics Museum at Didcot!
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Blimey, just show how much attention I pay
Ian
Dare I ask what BR stands for?!