Hi y'all
Now that Barry Island is a thing of the past & the 90 feet long Table Top Railway has diffused into oblivion, it is time to think of how to build the new modular project. Now since no-one seems to agree or have any desire to fit modules together in a timescale which meets my biological clock it is my intention to build up my 4 modules into a fully self contained layout. You may laugh now. Short pause.
Reference to the forum comments since 2010. (This is where biological time becomes significant as it is 2013 at time of posting) the 4 units will be constructed using a 6mm ply top. The ends mated together using pattern makers dowels with bolts. Will have "slot-in" nominal 50mm x 25mm wooded legs, secured with bolts. Adjustable screw feet for uneven surfaces. Track will be GRS brass on plastic sleeper base units. Points will be GRS brass on wooden sleepers.
The track will NOT be powered. Battery RC will rule.
It will be a 2 platform terminus design with a fiddle yard & an industrial siding.
All in 12 feet but 15 feet if another module is contributed to the show.
The trains will be short in length but 2 locos will provide the motive power, the layout will be big in operation as the shunting possibilities will be a nightmare.
It will not be referred to as a "test track" because it is small. It will be fully self contained. However if it was to connect to a larger circuit (in my dreams) then someone would have to make a junction module for it as a contribution. The fiddle yard would then be retro-fitted to G3 modular compatibility.
The terminal platform end will have buffers so no joy there for connectivity.
If SWMBO allows me adequate construction time it should take shape fairly quickly, started yesterday.
The plans & progress will be revealed for those interested enough to follow.
Cheers
Dave
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The Plan
Sketches for imagineering purposes only
That sounds good Dave - 12 ft of track and station!
As you know, I already have 15ft of module built (albeit with no track laid on them as yet). I have another 9ft of modular kits still to assemble - but between us we will then have about 36 foot of railway. Key thing will be to ensure we all build to the same 'rail' height (1 metre with +/- 25mm levelling adjustment) and that we have a common "connector" (i.e. as per the M01 standard). Why not make your front track your C3 connection point? Easy to do - looks like you have the room on the proposed layout.
Should anyone else fancy contributing to our combined 'length' there are still a few modular baseboard kits left - at £25 each (+P&P) to Members - about half price (or better) compared to the nearest commercial equivalent. They are 900mm x 610mm x 100 mm in 9mm ply - make building modules pretty simple and give a very strong, flex-free base. All kits are laser pre-cut with C3 connection points in the right place ready to go.
Regards,
IanT
Today the first module stands alone.
It seems longitudinally stable but has a first harmonic wobble in the transverse axis.
Cross bracing seems to be a need, so will experiment with vibration damping struts.
Dave
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Wire cross-bracing might help Dave. An " X " between each pair of legs... it's light and strong enough. Not tried it myself (yet) but it seemed to work OK on WW1 Biplanes!! :-)
Ian
Dave,
The lateral problem is due to the thinness of your legs (proportionally). I would suggest you try gluing another leg piece to the inside of the existing legs to form a T profile. This will give you a "purchase" on fitting your diagonal braces to.
regards
ralph
Ralph,
I kind of guessed that what you see in the picture would be the outcome as I was using available supplies of timber as a starting point. One consideration I have is keeping the weight down as portability is the prime concern. So before I press on with the next module I shall experiment with leg & bracing design.
The first solution 2 x 1 timber legs - result wobble as stated.
The second solution will of course be a T section with a single horizontal brace.
The third solution will be the second solution but with the addition of a diagonal brace.
I will be back.
Dave
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I'm very interested in this modular concept, even though I don't have one yet.
Ian suggested sticking with C3 connection points and Dave talks about pattern makers dowels. There seems to me to be a basic incompatibility here, so can both be used on the same module?
When C3 was first mooted I wanted dowels in the standard connector but others said joints need to be sloppy and aligned by eye, then nipped up. I really hope both can be fitted to the same board so that everyone can inter-connect. Otherwise its not a standard module at all.
Mike
Dave
Blackgang legs are 2x1 timber made using a jig and garden gate hinges at the tops of the legs. The diagonal bracing is held in position against a cross brace of the framework of the base board. This is not enough though to stop the boards from swaying length ways owing to the height of the base boards. Hence why there is two long diagonals made up of 3x1 and secured into the top of one base board leg to the bottom of the next. This gives the best end result for layout stability. I have also favoured wing its on M8 bolts as it is easier to keep to one standard size.
Hope this helps.
Mark
Mike
There is no incompatibility as the "My World" boards will be secured using the C3 connection & aligned using pattern makers dowels. To preserve many domestic environment assemblies/disaasemblies. The "Rest of World" connection at one end only will be left un-modified C3 connection as this will be infrequently (if ever) used.
Yes they can be used on the same module as they can be fitted outboard of the C3 connection holes.
But will have a projection on one face only which will not be compatible. The workaround for this is if the female dowel piece is fitted on the intended C3 connection end then no interference will be experienced due to that half of the unit being set flush in a counterbored 25mm hole. So personal modules can be whatever you like so long as the mating faces of the ones that are offered up to "the rest of the World" have a flush C3 connection face as the standard.
This is what I had planned ages ago after I obtained my 4 modules.
The sloppiness as you say is important when connecting with others as precision is not as guaranteed as the interconnection of the intermediate joints in the "My World" section which will be guaranteed with the pattern makers dowels.
All will be revealed on the first common module assembly "bash" when every user plugs into other users mating C3 connection end faces. I am confident it will work.
Mark,
Am doing 2 x 1 also. However these legs will not be hinged but bolted to the module frame using the holes provided.
Experiments this morning indicate that T section legs with a upper & lower horizontal brace gives good stability.
Am using a pair of 6mm bolts for the legs each side. A pair of 10mm bolts to grip modules together on the mating face.
All,
Will follow up with a photo when complete. Will also follow up with a photo of the pattern makers dowels once fitted in situ to prove no interference with C3 connection on the designated mating face.
Unfortunately the design length of the module at 900mm length and 1000mm height from floor to top of rail makes a hinged leg assembly self contained into the module a bit fraught. So I have decided the legs will be detachable. Which gives the option of table top support or leg support depending on the layout location. This I am happy with.
All comments are welcome.
Dave
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The attached picture depicts the pattern makers dowels, separated & also in a pair slightly parted, three fixing screws & most importantly of all the 25mm counterbore drill to enable the unit halves to sit flush with the mating surfaces.
Hope this helps understanding.
Will post another photo once the dowels are fitted.
Dave
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Here is the promised photo of the pattern makers dowels & drill
I think Dave has covered it Mike - but just to be clear, the difference in use between the dowels and the C3 connection is fairly straightforward in my view.
If you are connecting two baseboards that you are making yourself - then dowels can be a good solution - as you can drill their holes in both boards at the same time - thus ensuring alignment (assuming the holes are vertical).
If you want to connect to someone else's boards - then you need a degree of 'slop' to make that connection easily. If you really want to test this for yourself - mark up two boards as accurately as you can, drill them both but separately (as would be the case with two builders) and then fit them each with dowels. I'd be very surprised if you can connect the two together.
So if you are connecting modules that will always be connected to each other (a 'set' of custom modules) then Dowels are useful. But when you are connecting 'externally' then the C3 connector is a better choice.
Regards,
IanT
Female dowel halves fitted flush in a module end board.
Dave
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Thanks Dave and Ian. So by fitting the dowels flush one can have the option of locating to private modules (using dowels) or ones from elsewhere (using C3) on the same end of the same module. That's what I hoped because it gives the option of adding a length of plain track into a formation where space allows. For instance, I could make a station with run round loop, and at a show add somebody else's modules to double the length of the run round and thus the length of trains able to run.
Excellent. All I need to do now is persuade SWMBO that we really need some modules. Any ideas?
Mike
Picture depicts the provisional laying out the points for the layout on 2 of the adjacent modules, just slotted together.
This is exactly as per plan.
Both are GRS brass rail on wooden sleepers, LH turnout & Wye both 8 feet radius.
Observe that they both fit within the limits of each module, so no cutting precious points on module join.
The track separation will dictate the platform width.
Hope this gives others ideas as to what can be fitted.
If we are realistic about this exercise then forget Pacifics & other large engines. Motive power will be rail buses, tank engines, shunters, tram engines etc.
Considering low platforms as on light railways, possibly wooden planked.
Cinder ballast? Who knows?
I am open to suggestions.
This design concept should make the whole scene unpretentious, even though full signalling & powered turnouts will be fitted to such a simple layout. Such is modeller's license.
Dave
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Dave, why not model Dilton Marsh for an intermediate halt? (It's just outside Westbury on the Salisbury line)
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Nice short platform would make a good subject to model in another scenario. The layout subject of my build will have a 2 platform station i.e. Platform 1 - main (either terminal or through to connect to another module) & Platform 2 a terminal bay.
I can see a module with a single track with an intermediate halt just like Dilton Marsh being a viable proposition can I tempt you to have a go then Ian & connect up with us?
Dave
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OK being blunt Charles but you've kind of missed the point about the pattern makers dowels. We have absolutely no intention of making the pattern makers dowels fit ANY baseboard join so a precision metal template is not required.
The sole use of the pattern makers dowel is for the unique interconnection between 2 always adjacent boards.
The drilling of mating faces is accomplished by a pilot hole drilled through both the always to be connected faces.
The metal trestles are great & reasonably priced BUT does not meet the height requirement of adjustability to 1000mm from floor to rail top.
Hope this clarifies the design.
Dave
454
Charles,
The module kits the Society sells are laser cut and come with the 'holes' required for the C3 connection "pre-drilled" - so there is no need to fit any dowels for standard C3 connections. The holes are 10mm diameter and the modules are connected together with 8mm bolts - which gives a loose fit - desirable when modules are being constructed discretely by many people over time. There are many practices from the smaller scales that still make sense in G3 but there are also quite a few that do not.
The problems of connecting an 'N' gauge modules (and track) are not the same as those in G3. We can tolerate small misalignments of track that would be completely unworkable in N for instance.
Dowels have a use where the modules will always be fitted together and can be particularly useful if the track 'joins' do not meet at right angles to the board edge. Dave is fitting them to his modules but could have simply used the C3 bolting holes in my view, as they will locate modules +/- 2mm and it's not hard to align track and then tighten up the bolts. As Dave is laying his track to suit his layout needs, they are not 'standard' modules as per the definition but it would still work. Dave has chosen to fit dowels - and this will ensure absolute alignment but when I build my 'custom' modules I will not bother as I know (from my Mk1 modules) that it's not essential in our gauge. Having said that - if like Dave - someone wants to fit dowels then please go ahead. Nothing wrong with Belt & Braces (as I'm discovering in my advancing age - and growing waistline!).
And you are very right about the potential of Modules to take G3 out and about. Your comment about shopping precincts is also viable - I was reading somewhere (G1/16mm?) recently about a guy who showed his modules in a Bank Foyer and was invited to set it up in the local Shopping Mall as a result.
Regards,
IanT
1) Pressing on with construction - this morning the adjustable feet were fitted. The first module now conforms to both the G3 connection standard AND my next board's unique fit. See photo for adjustable feet. 1000mm floor to rail top height fully adjustable & lockable. Feels quite stable. :)
Oh I forgot to mention that I have been considering using inter-changable baseboard tops. So that reversion to tabletop can be an option depending on the arrangement at the time. 8)
2) Answering previous comments.
My pattern makers dowels solution to precise location is exactly that.
For my own track needs. The rails will be flush and rigid at the baseboard join edge. So much so that rail joiners should not be necessary. I will not be using 8mm bolts in 10mm holes but 10mm bolts in 10mm holes.
For the interfacing needs to other peoples track should that be an issue, then the track will have a limited range of looseness so that rail joiners may take up slight variations in straightness or curvature at the joint & maintain smooth wheel passage. Here 8mm bolts will be used in 10 mm holes. Who knows what will present at the baseboard edge until it happens. We do not live in a perfect world.
Starting module 2 next week. Of course module 2 end board has already been pilot drilled for the metal dowel kit.
Also will pre-drill pilots in modules 2 to 3 end boards.
Happy modulings.
Dave
454
The feet
Interesting idea about the 'exchangeable' module tops Dave. Probably because I've always built mine with the top board as an important part of the structure (i.e. it's rigidity) this hadn't really occurred to me.
However - the 'base' (depth) is the bit that takes up most of the storage/transport space and the new laser-cut bases are a lot more 'stand-alone' than my home brew ones and pretty rigid in their own right. So the idea of being able to "swop the top" does have some interesting possibilities and I look forward to seeing your variants.
The other approach of course is to have a (thin) plain top and simply lay track on it - very much like the TTR in fact. There is also the possible use of "track inlays" something I'm looking at because of our TTR experience. This involves a removable insert that could (for instance) be a turnout or a plain track section - which are varied dependent upon the track configuration/module use. I don't really like the idea of short stubs of turnout that go nowhere (apart from the module edge) simply because they are not required by the 'current' layout.
Anyway - I'm very happy to see your modules progressing Dave!
Regards,
IanT
Nice legs by the way! (don't get to say that too often these days) :)
It was the TTR that gave me the idea. The interchangeable tops can be ballasted & scenic-ified. The whole character & nature of the railway. Region, period, rural, urban can be varied according to taste, particularly to suit available rolling stock & accessories.
The added confidence of the module carcass rigidity not dependant on the baseboard top added fuel to this concept.
I think we just raised the game!
Dave
454
I hoped it helped Charles,
It's easy to forget that some people reading these posts will be very new to the ideas we've been kicking around for a while and not at all familiar with the specific details (or the rationale) of what's already been developed. So don't stop asking questions, hopefully we may even know the answers!
I've remembered where I saw the "Shopping Mall" reference by the way (it's been bugging me all afternoon). I was at Barry Island and browsing through the G-Scale Society's back-issue stand (nice magazine by the way) and the article was in one of them.
Actually, it's a pretty good idea - there's no particular reason our "Exhibitions" have to be confined to Model Railway events. In fact, it could be argued that MR events are not that good for recruiting new blood. Railway Modellers will normally already be deeply committed to another scale/gauge in terms of their existing financial commitment in stock etc. and (possibly more importantly) their social/club connections (i.e. their railway modelling friends!). So although they might seem an ideal audience - existing RM's can also be a tough one to convert.
Regards,
Ian T
As we were slowly drifting off topic, sidetracking put me off describing the legs of the module.
The legs are secured using the 2 machine ready drilled holes provided on each side of the module.
The length is calculated to provide 1000mm from floor to railhead +/- a tolerance as per M01 standard and this length includes a screw adjuster as seen on the photo already uploaded.
The legs are braced with an upper & lower horizontal brace each of section 70mm x 15mm.
I have not provided diagonal bracing, nor longitudinal bracing either horizontal or diagonal.
After securing the legs vertically, the whole structure as an individual 4 legged module/table is reasonably stable.
So until the whole set of 4 or 5 are made I will not be over engineering by felling more trees than necessary.
If the layout appears unstable on completion then will review the bracing.
The bolts I have used are Hex 6mm bolts with penny washer on the outside.
The baseboard side frame is drilled 6mm. But I have drilled the legs 7.5mm to accept Spiked T nuts which hammer into the legs. The threaded tube of the T nut is 7.7mm o/d so fits easily into the wooden leg.
So no fiddling with washers & nuts under the baseboard is required on layout assembly or dis-assembly, just feed the bolt in/out from the outside and tighten/un-tighten with a ratchet spanner.
If I get an opportunity I will upload a detail picture of the T nut fixing & leg installation.
Quick & easy.
Dave
454
As promised this is a picture of the M6 leg fixing bolts being used with a Tnut.
Included a couple of Tnuts for visualisation purposes.
The spikes stick into the wood where hopefully it will remain.
The bolts simply screw in from the outside so no fumbling under baseboards is necessary as with using nuts & washers.
Will they stand the test of time. Who knows? But I am happy to try. Although I will carry a few spare Tnuts with me just in case some get lost on the way.
Dave
454
Hope the kids don't bounce about on my layout modules Charles.
Just going to keep a few spares, cannot be bothered to drill & screw a penny washer just to make them captive, life is too short just go to keep on building modules.
Thought about a dab of epoxy might help retain them for longer.
Cheers
Dave
454
Charles, hope I'm still around in ten years time when one works loose. It will be a pleasure to repair it then.
Cheers
Dave
454
Back to construction.
Had originally intended to fit 6mm ply baseboard tops. However, since recently stripping my loft layout I have a plentiful supply of 9mm ply to recycle. So, in the interests of environmentally friendliness my old baseboard tops are having a re-incarnation on the modular layout. Just have to cut them down to size. On the subject of recycling several very good serviceable wood screws have been liberated together with quite a bit of 2 x 1 so that has just saved a few quid by not having to pop into the local DIY store.
The 4th board & all legs have been completed today.
Am designing the baseboard tops to be removable so that the fitted layout may be replaced by either another layout or plain table top boards.
The fixings to be used are glued & screwed timber tabs to the upper inside surfaces of the module side frame members. Then baseboard placed in situ & clamped awaiting drilling. A 4mm drill though baseboard & each tab. Insert 4mm T nut on underside of wooden support tab. Then screw down the baseboard with a series of M4 flat head bolts & penny washers. If desirable the flat head bolt & penny washer could be set flush with the baseboard top by a counterbore into the baseboard top.
Let you know how I get on later.
Coming up next week. Track laying hopefully.
Dave
454
Photo opportunity, quick assembly, photo, disassembly.
All M10 bolts across joints, pattern makers dowel alignment fittings, legs bolted with M6 bolts & T nuts.
Awaiting 8 off leg adjusters & baseboard tops.
High probability of track laying next week.
Dave
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