A long time ago, I acquired on Ebay (from someone who has since become a member of this forum ... G3F was not formed until 2009) an untouched GRS kit for the GWR/AEC diesel railcar.
It sat in the box for a year or more but, in a spurt of enthusiasm, I then made a start on what I thought would be a quick project.
The body castings were cleaned of flash, the cell pack, ESC (Electronize FR8T) and other components were installed under the floor : It was immediately apparent that the floor lacked rigidity and would require reinforcement.
Next the two motor bogies were assembled. The power units are in fact two re-gauged Aristocraft bogies (I was told by Michael Adamson that the kit must be one of the first batch of 10 kits, since later batches were fitted with USA Trains power units) but "clothed" in very nice (whitemetal) highly-detailed castings which were very clean and crisp (obviously from new moulds) and were easily assembled.
The unfortunate thing about them was that they were structurally very weak, a result of the cross-members which secured them to the power units being also of thinnish whitemetal.
No problem with the sideframes (strong and with superb detailing) .... just that the whole structure was let down by the weak cross-beam mountings.
Combined result of the flexing floor and flimsy bogie frames was that the whole project was shelved in favour of other (at the time thought to be simpler!) GRS loco. kits.
__________________________________________
Last week (having completed the Sentinel project locos) I resurrected the railcar, with renewed enthusiasm.
The bogie castings were removed from the power units and "beefed-up" with flat steel and brass channel. They are now very rigid and "knock-resistant".
The method was to take some steel flat strip, cut it to the width between the side frames, drill it to accept the existing motor block mounting screws and drill for two further 6BA bolts to secure the steel to the whitemetal cross beam at the outer ends (as well as at the inner motor block mounting points).
I decided that it would be better to leave the soldered whitemetal beams in place, rather than to attempt to replace them by soldering or glueing the steel strip to the sideframes (which would be unlikely to produce a satisfactory result). The result was a very rigid central crossmember.
Next to be tackled were the two cross members at the outer ends of the bogies. These flimsy whitemetal parts had been bolted through the side frames and rested on small central spigots which project from the motor block. Again I decided it would be better to leave the original castings in place and "beef-up" with metal .... this time I employed brass U-channel.
Again this was cut to fit between the existing side-frame mountings and filed to clear obstructions and I then filled the channels with Isopon P-38 and pressed them onto the whitemetal beams. After leaving for a couple of minutes (before the P-38 sets rock hard) I trimmed away the excess which had oozed out. After 30 minutes, the whole structure was as rigid and strong as you could wish for (and, if necessary, the bogie frames can still be removed in one piece by removing just two screws from each bogie).
Next the flexing floor needed attention and a strip of flat steel was bolted along the entire length of the underside, offset to one side to clear the bogie pivots and the already fitted underfloor components.
Since then I have been concentrating on installing the remainder of the electronics, which has involved a lot of wiring (much of it running the full length of the carriage).
The radio control will use 3 channels : Speed/direction ; two-tone horn and the lighting regulator (which has 4-way setting options for the head lamps and tail lamps).
A few photos follow to illustrate.
More soon.
John
1) Floor from above with straight row of nuts indicating the location (on underside) of the reinforcing steel strip.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/floor1.jpg)
2) Underside of floor showing cell pack, Electronize ESC and other minor components (the "side skirts" of the bodywork will conceal these from view.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/ufloorpower.jpg)
3) Underside of power bogie showing steel strip bolted to cross member.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/bogie1.jpg)
4) Bogies showing end U-channel fitted over the end cross member castings.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/bogie3.jpg)
5) Power bogie in situ, showing end strengthening channel and restraint chain (to prevent bogie swinging when removed from track with attendant risk to power feed wiring connectors) note also the floor strengthening bar.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/bogiemount.jpg)
6) Another view of bogie showing cable connector linking power feed to bogie as well as chain.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/bogie4.jpg)
7) View of luggage compartment and No.2 cab with sound and lighting regulator electronics fitted to floor (a lot of wiring still to be connected).
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/luggagecomptmnt.jpg)
8 ) Underside of roof with speaker and sound card mounted above luggage compartment.
(http://lakes-pages.com/wpimages/roofsound.jpg)
John,
that seems to be progressing well. The electrics/electronics is the bit I least like doing, but it does enhance the experience of running the models, so please could you give us a "for Dummies" guide to how you're doing it: which lights, what sound card etc?
Geoff,
A brief resume.
The sound card is MyLocosound (made by Peter Lucas/"Moonraker" on this forum) they are available from Peter Spoerer in UK.
The whistle control relay is made as per instructions at http://g3madesimple.org.uk/digiswitches/
The lighting control is made up of two components:
a) a two-way digital switching device "ARCS2" available from http://andyquirot.co/sales/radio-control-switch/
this feeds into
b) a home-made DPDT relay unit with a 5V regulated output (to LEDs) .
This combo gives four switching combinations governing the head lamps and red tail lamps which can be switched by radio control according to direction of travel or just red lamps if "parked".
In the case of this diesel, I have decided only to permit the "tickover" (stationary) engine sound in addition to the two tone horn: The motors/bogies make enough sound when in motion and the sound card really is not capable of producing the sort of throaty roar made by a pair of AEC-Ricardo engines at full throttle (the engines were derived from those used in London buses of that era).
If you want to use the full range of engine sound, then just two extra wires are required BUT to permit "coasting" you would require another DPDT relay unit as described at http://g3madesimple.org.uk/digiswitches/
More detailed info in due course but I am too busy at moment to draw circuit diags.
John.
P.S. The comment regarding "coasting" applies only to diesel sound cards and not steam sound cards, which are now available with a built-in "coasting" function.
John, does your sound card
i) sound like a pair of 1930's AEC London Bus engines?;
ii) go up through the gears, thus recreating the semi-automatic epicyclic gearbox of the prototype? (for reference listen to No 22 at Didcot).
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Ian,
As I said above, I have limited the sound output to the horn and engine "idle" since the throaty roar of a pair of AEC-Ricardo 8.8 litre engines at full throttle is not within its capabilities.......as for changing up through the gears!!
In fact the pair of motor bogies themselves give out quite a nice "growl" under acceleration.
John.
Update on lights and sound.
Regarding the lighting controls, I find that I actually posted details of these several years ago!
See http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,298.0.html
Having adjusted the idle speed/volume of the sound card, I decided to link the traction motors to the sound card and was surprised to find that it actually sounds far better than I had expected. On acceleration from stationary, the car speed matches quite nicely to the increase in engine revs. as it moves away and once speed reaches a certain point, the sound output merges with that of the bogie "diddly-dum" and the hum of the traction motors. It reminded me of the sound of the two-car Cravens unit which used to shake and rattle along the Sudbury to Marks Tey branch on my way to the City in the early 1980s!
Haven't tried it yet on a gradient but (since the sound card output is controlled by traction voltage) I am hoping that starting from a standstill (going up grade) will produce realistic engine-revving before the car starts to move.
John.
Railcar light switching circuit.
The two components are a commercially available radio controlled two-way switch (ARCS2 from www.andyquirot.co/sales/radio-control-switch/ ) and an auxiliary DPDT relay unit (home-made).
The circuit diagram is below but first there follows a basic description of how it functions.
The ARCS2 has two latching independent on-off outputs which are of negative polarity (it's like having two separate single-pole on-off switches). One output (referred to as "A") controls the negative supply to the relay coil on the auxiliary board, while the other(referred to as "B") controls the negative supply to the (white) headcode LEDs.
Position (1)
"A" and "B" both de-energized : Red LED at #2 cab end "on" (all white LEDs extinguished; railcar status "parked").
Position (2)
"A" de-energized with "B" energized : Red LED at #1 cab end "on" (all white LEDs extinguished; railcar status "parked").
Position (3)
"A" energized with "B" de-energized : White LEDs at #1 cab end "on"with red LED at #2 cab end "on" (railcar ready to proceed "forwards" i.e. #1 cab leading).
Position (4)
"A" and "B" both energized : White LEDs at #2 cab end "on"with red LED at #1 cab end "on" (railcar ready to proceed in "reverse" i.e. #2 cab leading).
This setup gives 4 lighting combinations but these can be expanded upon by interposing additional switches (radio-controlled or manual) between the output leads for the white lights.
For the purposes of the GWR railcar (which has 3 white lights each end ..... one central above cab and one by each buffer) there are only two codes possible.
1) Stopping passenger : Just the one light above the cab illuminated
or
2) Express passenger : Just the two lights by the buffers illuminated.
Not wishing to add additional r/c controlled relays (running out of space to fit them!) I have fitted miniature single-pole changeover switches at each end, to select express or local code.
The different radio-controlled codes are selected by moving the transmitter stick either side of the neutral position : Toggling in one direction will switch output "A" on/off, while toggling in opposite direction will switch "B" on/off.
I dare say the above is "as clear as mud" but it does work!
John.
Note : To clarify use of the 1N914 diode, the cathode (end with the thick coloured ring/band) is connected to the 5V POSITIVE side of the relay coil and the anode to the NEGATIVE (Ground) side.
Heart Transplant (x2) for GWR "Flying Banana"
If you have one of the early GRS GWR railcar kits which were supplied with Aristocraft bogies and have a problem, this may help you.
If you look at the previous photos, you will see I thought the electronics and bogies for this kit had been sorted!
Take nothing for granted with a GRS kit!
I had previously only tested the system for a few seconds running time (on several occasions at stages during construction) but had never had the motors running for any length of time.
Since the previous post, the kit has sat at the back of my bench, awaiting a burst of enthusiasm.
It wasn't so much a burst of enthusiasm, more a case of wanting the damn thing completed and out of the way, so it was dragged to the front and work commenced. First thing was to re-test the electrics.
Cell pack was fully charged at 24V (a 21.5V nominal pack) and the the wheels turned at a moderate speed (on full throttle) but that lasted only around 20 seconds and they quickly slowed and came to a stop.
Checked cell pack (Strikalite 2100mAh) and the reading was still 24V. Started motors again and same thing happened, ran for around 15 seconds then slowed to a halt. Third time, the motors sighed and nothing happened!
I disconnected the parallel configuration and connected the bogies individually to the cell pack (by passing the ESC in case that was at fault) but, again, they ran for a few seconds then stopped.
Tried a spare GRS motor gearbox with the cell pack and it ran at full speed without any problems.
Came to conclusion this must be a faulty motor issue.
The kit I have was an early example with Aristocraft bogies : Michael Adamson told me years ago that the first ten kits had these but the later batches were supplied with USA Trains bogies; he didn't offer an explanation, it may simply have been that Aristocraft bogies were no longer available.
I Googled for problems with Aristocraft motor bogies and it soon became apparent that there was a widespread issue with the motors in some bogies drawing 5+ Amps.
Reason for my problem was obvious.... two bogies drawing massive current from a 2100mAh cell pack.
Result is the electrical equivalent of a boiler running out of steam and having to stop for a "brew up"!
There was no way I could fit a cell pack to cope with currents of that magnitude (SLA cell would be far too big and heavy) so only solution would be new bogies or a motor transplant.
I have often been told that only a single powered bogie is necessary for the GRS railcar kits (they are supplied with two) so looked around for a solution which would avoid scrapping the motor blocks and scratchbuilding fresh bogies. The original motors are Mabuchi and marked "RS-385PH CA 12 99 20 Hong Kong" and having long shafts at both ends. One end carries a worm which directly drives one axle, the other end carries a coupling to a drive shaft which connects to an enclosed gearbox on the second axle.
I was unable to find a direct replacement for these motors which would fit the into the bogies.
A few years ago I purchased (on Ebay) a pair of new Buehler 24 Volt motors which were said to be for garden railway use but were very cheap and came from Germany without spec sheet. It turned out they were in fact made in the USA ... metal case is stamped "Buehler, Kinston, N.C., USA" so was pleased to see they were a quality product and not Chinese! They went into the spares box for future use.
It so happens that they fit the Aristocraft block but have only a single end shaft but it is the same length as that on the end of the Mabuchi motors which carry the coupling to the gearbox. Plan was to use one motor in each bogie to drive the self-contained gearbox, leaving the worm-driven axle non-powered.
The transplants were not difficult, the only mod to the motors being a need to "sleeve" the shaft which is 2.0mm whereas old motors were 2.3mm. I had some 2.5mm external dia brass tube which was a perfect fit over the motor shaft, so I drilled out the brass gearbox shaft coupling to 2.5mm for half its length, then soldered the length of tube to the motor shaft with a couple of seconds blast from the butane micro torch (using non-corrosive solder cream and small pliers as a heat sink to protect motor bearings/armature). Some small notches were cut in the bogie block casings to clear the terminals and wiring.
I haven't yet reached the stage where the bogies are mounted on the chassis for test running but powering the bogies on the bench with a 16.8V cell pack gave good results.
More reports as rebuild progresses but hope this fix may save from the scrap heap a few more of the Aristocraft GRS GWR railcar bogies .
In depth details of the problems encountered with the ESC and motors can be found at http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,2230.msg14305/topicseen.html#msg14305
(Photos of bogie motor swap below)
John
(https://thumb.ibb.co/eB4GOp/DSCN2071.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eB4GOp)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/jQMkG9/DSCN2076.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jQMkG9)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/iukO3p/DSCN2058.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iukO3p)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/m1o49U/DSCN2065.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m1o49U)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/nJCaG9/DSCN2069.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nJCaG9)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/hU4Nw9/DSCN2077.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hU4Nw9)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/h39GOp/DSCN2078.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h39GOp)
I have now managed to identify the Buehler motors used in this conversion which I bought from a German supplier in 2015.
They are Buehler (US made) type 1.16.037.044 and are still available...see
https://www.modelsector.com/sonderposten/motore/buehler-motor-12-28v-116037044.php
On the rolling road, each bogie is drawing 250mA when directly supplied (i.e. not through ESC) from a 16.8V 2100mAh cell pack.
John.
Railcar update.
Now the cell pack and all the electronics have been refitted to the railcar, I decided to test the effectiveness of the two Buehler motors which drive the inner axle of each bogie. I had concerns that, not knowing the specs of the two motors, they may not have enough "grunt" to handle the, now quite heavy, railcar.
I chose the steepest section of my line (approx 1 in 40) and ran the car in both directions. From a standing start (on slightly wet rails) it accelerated to full speed up-grade in less than a yard . The motors held the car "in check" going down grade and stopped from full speed within a yard from cutting power. I estimate "full speed" to equate to around a scale 60 mph with a 23.5V supply.
Very satisfactory outcome. I now have to fit the interior, the roof and add the minor cosmetic details before sending it into the paintshop.
John.
Good work John. I think GRS switched to USA trains motor blocks as the Aristrocraft parts were hard to get by and a were not an easy company to deal with.
Quote from: hornbeam on Oct 17 2018 19:39
Good work John. I think GRS switched to USA trains motor blocks as the Aristrocraft parts were hard to get by and a were not an easy company to deal with.
Speaking to Micheal at GRS some years ago, it was down to the nylon gearing in the Aristo gearbox and axles that killed the deal. They kept stripping gears and the wheels kept slipping off the tapered axle ends and therefore going out of gauge (G1).
USA gearboxs and wheelsets were more resilient. The USA blocks also made it easier to mount third party bogie sideframes as well providing as a more reliable power pickup from the track.
The effort to build G3 axles into the bogie frames was made much easier and retained the reliability of the USA trains gearbox design.
This kit (after umpteen years on the shelf, part built) is now "almost there".
Just needs a clean-up and it will be ready for the paintshop.
A lot of modifications have been made, both mechanical and cosmetic.
The latest are shown in the following photos.
One modified item not shown, since it will not be fitted until the very last (to avoid damage) is the pair of gearbox oil-coolers which fit beneath the ends. The coarse/crude mesh supplied with the kit has been replaced with fine etched brass mesh (by Scalelink). This mesh will also be used for the recessed side panel vents.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/nH7j70/genview.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nH7j70)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/gLwBn0/RX.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gLwBn0)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/iK0huf/soundand-light-control.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iK0huf)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/cUOJZf/cabend.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cUOJZf)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/eOW0fL/window-strip.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eOW0fL)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/e8cHS0/step.jpg) (https://ibb.co/e8cHS0)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/kqbGLL/sidefixing.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kqbGLL)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/hj2dZf/enginecooling.png) (https://ibb.co/hj2dZf)
For the sake of completeness, here are photos of the underside showing arrangement of components and of the false floor covering the electronics in the luggage compartment.
While the head code marker lamps and red tail lamps are switched by radio control, the space allowed only four permutations of headcode and/or tail lights (white/red at either opposite ends or red only at either end). To overcome this, a small toggle switch is located behind the oil-coolers which switches between "local" (single roof light) and "express" (two lights by the buffers) headcodes.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/nfewN0/falsefloor.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nfewN0)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/d4gbN0/underside1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4gbN0)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/cif0FL/underside2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cif0FL)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/dfvBN0/lightswitch.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dfvBN0)
John,
Your resin cast radiator grilles are interesting. What sort of resolution can you get do you think in terms of slat pitch?
Rgds, Tim
Tim,
The pattern was made from strips of thin plastic card, stuck to a plastic card backing with "Plastic Weld" liquid solvent.
The pattern and silicon rubber mould are now packed away along with hundreds of other similar items (wagon, loco, buildings and accessory parts) and I cannot immediately locate them.
I am attaching photos of a couple of spare castings from the "stock box" which provide closer views.
It should be possible to use the same technique to produce grilles for BR diesel locos.... I shall use the same method for LMS 10000, when I eventually get around to it (the second Flexikit loco after the Sentinel).
Incidentally, the Sentinel cast resin chimney includes a spark arrestor "mesh" which is an integral part of the casting and aluminium mesh was used to produce that pattern (in fact a circle cut from the same mesh that had been discarded from the GRS railcar kit)!
Regards,
John.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/hPKGQL/oilcooler1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hPKGQL)
Not an easy subject to photograph successfully but this is the gearbox oil-cooler grille which has been made using "Scalelink" etched brass mesh. There are two of these, one beneath the cab at each end.
The same mesh will be used for the plain side vents which sit alongside the slatted grillles shown in previous post. The GRS aluminium mesh is far too coarse and clumsy-looking.
Scalelink supply the mesh in a number of sizes.
"Quirky" seating arrangements in the GRCW-built "Flying Bananas".
GWR diesel railcars Nos. 5 to 16 had some unusual seating arrangements, which are not fully explained in the GRS assembly instructions. Incidentally, the GRS instructions tell you to cut the seat ends 2mm larger than the plastic seat moulding profile but the photos of the interiors of these cars show the cushions to have been larger than the seat ends, so it is better to cut the ends to just match the mouldings. I did consider making resin castings to get a more accurate seat shape but the weight penalty would have been too great.
1) Where the underfloor engine bays projected into the floor of the passenger compartment, the seats, which were same profile as remaining seats, sit on top of the raised floor. However, where the floor level transitions, the back-to-back seating was unusual, in that the seat backs were the same height but the cushions/squabs were at different levels to suit the floor (see photo which makes it clear). In addition, where the seats were set higher than normal floor level, there were narrow horizontal timber "decency" panels along the bottom of the adjacent windows (these I will illustrate when the car has been painted and the glazing has been fitted).
(https://thumb.ibb.co/gYO3kV/seatend.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gYO3kV)
2) The sliding doors (both the luggage compartment and passenger access) opened into "pockets" between the car sides and the seating, which means that the seats which impinged on the "pockets" were narrower than the remainder. This means that one seat in each of the two pairs of "back-to-back" seats which would otherwise have impinged, was narrower than the other (again see photo).
(https://thumb.ibb.co/iOQNeq/seatendi.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iOQNeq)
3) Cars Nos. 10, 11 & 12 were fitted with a lavatory and their seating differed from the others in one other respect. The doors on the partition between the seating compartments were "off-centre" to accommodate the lavatory, with the result that one of the double width seats (set against the partition) is narrowed to a single seat, the result being only 63 seats, by comparison with 70 seats in the other GRCW cars.
The door "pockets" in the non-lavatory cars were glass screens on both sides of the car, with vertical dividers to the three panels of glass. In cars 10/11/12, the screen on the lavatory side was of timber (again with vertical panel dividers), with a glass screen on the other side of the car. This will be illustrated when final assembly has taken place.
Patterned Moquette Seat Covers.
I spent some few days deciding how to deal with the seat coverings. The photos. of the GRCW cars from No. 5 onwards show a "plaid" pattern. The photos are all B&W showing the base colour being pale and the pattern darker. After sifting through GWR books, I found 1935 pattern samples which were described as "tartan", in pale blue and green for First Class and gold and brown for Third Class compartments. The railcars were Third Class only (a 2s 6d supplement was charged when the cars were employed on "express" services) so the gold/brown pattern was the choice. It may have been described as such but I believe the reality was more like orange than gold...... the 1936 "fan" design moquette is described as orange and brown and the tones in the B&W photos appear to be the same as the gold/brown of the 1935 tartan pattern.
So, having decided to attempt the pattern, for the base colour I used the same mix as I had used for the "dark stone" colour on the GWR buildings ..... a creamy/orange tone.
(https://i.ibb.co/kQYXn8J/seatpainted.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kQYXn8J)
Next the imaging software was used to draw the tartan pattern which was then laser-printed onto waterslide clear decal paper.
(https://i.ibb.co/W6CVpfw/tartan-pattern.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W6CVpfw)
I had thought it would likely be a failure but am surprised with the results.
(https://i.ibb.co/W6MFXKB/plaidseat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W6MFXKB)
(https://i.ibb.co/85PkWrz/plaid-seat2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/85PkWrz)
If I need to produce a light pattern on dark background in future, that can easily be done using white decal paper in place of the clear/transparent type.
Now no excuses for drab-looking seats!
(https://i.ibb.co/W6vTGF1/driver.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W6vTGF1)
Vacancy for a Driver...or two!
The cab of the railcar is almost complete, with just some paintwork to be touched up and the glazing to be added, but there is still no driver!
I have ordered Bachmann part No. 22-197 since it was the only reasonable semblance of a motorman/driver I could find. The problem is that one has to have a driver (or Guard) at each end (I have ordered two sets) but they are "permanent", regardless of direction of travel. Unless one went to the lengths of having radio-controlled figures which "pop-up" through hatches in the floor (no I am not going to try that...I'll leave that to somebody else!) there seems to be no alternative.
The other problem with "occupants" of carriages and railcars is that they cannot be removed when stock stands in sidings or is being shunted as ECS!
Perhaps "holographics" can (in the future ) offer a solution!
Any suggestions?
John.
Bachmann G-scale giants!
The drivers for the railcar arrived and are huge (box is clearly marked as G-scale)!
So far, I have been unable to get them into the cabs, even though I have amputated their feet at the ankles.
Fortunately, I have not yet glazed the cabs, so have the option of pushing through the windows, assuming I can can trim or bend them to fit.
(https://i.ibb.co/gMCfK3G/drvr1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gMCfK3G)
(https://i.ibb.co/qkXKjFb/drvr2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qkXKjFb)
(https://i.ibb.co/DY0kmFx/drvr3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DY0kmFx)
They are both too broad and too tall : Photos show them in passenger seats...... taking up almost a whole double seat width and half of a "three aside" seat. Their height places the tops of their heads almost at cantrail level (and that's when seated").
John.
You could try Modelu John. They don't do Gauge 3 yet, but will do so very soon.
Mike
Mike,
That would be a good option but I need to get this off my bench ASAP .... it is taking up the space needed for two Coal Tanks!
After 6 hours of manipulation (more amputations....half the legs below knees now gone) which included removing/refitting all the cab fittings, modifying the seats and relocating the R/C Rx unit plus wiring, I think I now have a reasonable result with the driver's right hand on the gear-change lever.
Next task is the black/gold lining, then fit the glazing and passenger seats.
John.
(https://i.ibb.co/rHMZFbb/drvr5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rHMZFbb)
(https://i.ibb.co/XXGycNp/drvr6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XXGycNp)
With all the arms and legs being chopped up -could this be the plot synopsis for the latest Hammer Horror film " Train of Frankenstein"???
Regards
Ralph
QuoteWith all the arms and legs being chopped up -could this be the plot synopsis for the latest Hammer Horror film " Train of Frankenstein"???
Mmm....I was wondering what to do with all the spare body parts!
Regards,
John.
Spare body parts,
hmm how about some sweeney todd references and some nice pies as long as there is gravy !!!!!
Mark
QuoteSpare body parts,
hmm how about some sweeney todd references and some nice pies as long as there is gravy !!!!!
A fresh "twist" on Christmas lunch! Perhaps more appropriate for Halloween..?!
John.
I spent today glazing the railcar and fitting the door pockets and raised seating window protection boards.
Previous three days were spent on lining the beast, applying the transfers and varnishing.
The passengers will be fitted next....I spent some while arguing with myself as to whether or not to fit any passengers. A railcar sitting in a siding (out of service) would look unrealistic if the passengers were still on board .... however, having a driver at both ends isn't terribly realistic either!
The end is now in sight : The roof and a few minor details remain to be fitted and it will be complete.
One detail I haven't been able to settle, is the matter of the horns.
As originally delivered, the cars had horns but they are not visible in any of the photos. The GWR found them to be inadequate and experimented with all sorts of arrangements before settling on the two-tone (E-flat and G-flat) Desilux air horns, with four horns fitted at each end of the cars. I have not fitted any horns since I have no idea where they were....the drawings don't show them. I will add them later, if evidence of the type and location is discovered.
(https://i.ibb.co/LvS4dSb/interior1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvS4dSb)
(https://i.ibb.co/X5N3XY2/interior2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5N3XY2)
(https://i.ibb.co/WDgjj11/interior3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WDgjj11)
Photos below illustrate raised seats over the engine bays and the transition to normal floor level.
(https://i.ibb.co/mhR079p/interior5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mhR079p)
(https://i.ibb.co/6ncTbVm/interior4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ncTbVm)
Their just here . . .
http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00001-eaw-dh-western-railcar.jpg
I am afraid that is a late modification.
I have lots of photos of the various modified versions..... early on some had two below the nose, others had two below the nose plus one either side of the cab windows but, as they came out of the AEC works the horns were not visible!
I have seen lots of ex-works (AEC) photos but none has the horn(or horns) visible.
As an example of one in early condition, see http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/monmouth_may_hill/monmouth(morant)may_hill_old1.jpg
Regards,
John.
DAPOL have recently released a model of the GWR Railcar and had this to say on the air horns.
"When these railcars were originally delivered in February 1936 they did not have any horns,, there is a picture in the book 'Great Western Diesel Railcars' of number 12 in August 1936 fitted with side covers to the bogies and no horns visible, which is the condition we modeled number 11 on with fitted bogie covers, so no horns are supplied or fitted with this model. There is a picture in the same book of number 11 in April 1938 with air horns fitted to the side cab windows, but the bogie covers have now been removed.
Later two larger horns were fitted in front of the radiator, all other models have these two horns fitted.
I hope the above clarifies the position.
Kind Regards, Richard "
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64529-dapol-streamlined-railcar/page-6#entry2304087
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/filedata/fetch?id=487&d=1474979498
Thanks Bob, I had not found that reference previously.
Although no horns were visible, they must have been fitted with some kind of warning device or they would not have been allowed to operate (and there are photos of them being run without the visible horns).
Interestingly, the appendix to the 1936 GWR Rule Book states, "Warning of the approach of Car. These cars are fitted with a whistle at each end, operated from the engine exhaust, also an electric horn for use when stationary or moving slowly, ..........".
Looking at the ex-works photos and the photo link I gave in previous message (and other similar photos.) I am wondering whether the "gadget" attached to the right hand bracket supporting the oil cooler is in fact the exhaust-powered whistle.
Regards,
John.
Dear John,
We need some information to narrow this down. What number Railcar are you building?
From the postings you have already made with reference to G.R.C.W.s differences in seating arrangements I assume this to be in the range 5 to 7. http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,1661.msg14450.html#msg14450
Numbers 5 to 7:
Assuming that I am correct with my assumption, the batch of Railcar underframes numbered from 5 to 7 were built at the same time with the same underframe chassis as earlier Railcars 2 to 4. This where G.R.C.W. instigated body changes and introduced sliding doors on railcars 5 to 7 to replace the swinging opening doors, deeper passenger windows were also introduced.
Numbers 8 to 17:
In February 1935 an order for ten more railcars was made to the same basic plan with 70 seat bodies (10 to 12 had 63 seats and a lavatory) these were introduced to traffic in 1936.
From the experience of running the railcars over the revious 12 months a number of modifications were introduced including oil coolers fitted at the front and rear under the buffers to combat the high oil temperatures sustained under continuous high speed running.
The previous seven railcars (1 to 7) were subsequently fitted with these radiator modifications.
Looking at Number 4 in Swindons Steam museum, it clearly has an oil cooling radiator, but the two inner vertical supports are not as heavy duty as other railcars like No.8 and onwards which are supporting either a single or dual pair of cast GWR air horns.
Perhaps a field visit to see number 4 would shed some light on the location of underframe mounted exhaust powered whistles or air horns? But even here, the oil cooled radiator only appears at one end of the railcar. Although looking closely, you can see four circles in the lower nose below buffer height which have what looks like two different sized grills which could have the GWR pair of cast air horns mounted behind them.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/GWR_railcar_at_York%2C_Aug_17.jpg/1280px-GWR_railcar_at_York%2C_Aug_17.jpg
Either way 1936 seems to be the cut-off date for the installation of GWR air horns on earlier railcars, which could only be done with heavy duty oil cooling radiator mountings.
Bob,
I am modelling No.8 which was the first of the batch with a diifferent gearbox/drive arrangement from Nos. 2 to 7 (as you correctly said, 5,6 and 7 have same drive arrangement as 2 to 4 but 5 to 7 had GRCW bodywork and not Hardy/Park Royal bodies).
5, 6 and 7 varied visually from Nos. 8 to 12 and 14 to 16, in that the beading on the cab ends was swept upwards to the centre.
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p190563228
No.13 was different again, the beading being horizontal but the painted lining was swept upwards and continued horizontally, immediately below the cab windows.
https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p190563228
The photo link to the car at Monmouth (May Hill)
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/monmouth_may_hill/monmouth(morant)may_hill_old1.jpg
can only be one of the 8 to 16 series (with the exception of No.13). Photographic evidence on the matter of the oil coolers seems to be at variance with what has been written in the books. The ex-works (GRCW) photos of No.5 onwards all show the oil coolers in place upon delivery to the GWR, so were not "retro-fitted" to any of the GCRW cars.
Cars Nos. 1 to 3 do not have the oil coolers in early 1934 photos but No.4 does (in Mid-1934), so I surmise that No.4 was the first to have the coolers fitted ex-works and 1 to 3 were retro-fitted. The problem with the gearbox oil overheating was identified early on, when the Birmingham to Cardiff express service was being introduced.
All the GRCW cars (5 to 16 plus the Parcels Car No.17) show the "gadget" fitted to the oil cooler RH bracket when delivered new but no sign of any visible air horns.
The photo of No.4 when new shows a single horn recessed into "nose" of cab (with just the hollow lip showing) but that was an electric "klaxon" (road vehicle type) which is said to have been confusing for track workers and was not loud enough....hence the experiments with air horns. The photos of the preserved No.4 show different front end detail from original......always a problem when using restored/preserved stock as reference point.
Nowhere have I found any precise facts about the whistles/horns, just vague references to changes to the original configurations.
Regards,
John.
Quote from: John Candy on Dec 26 2018 12:27Nowhere have I found any precise facts about the whistles/horns, just vague references to changes to the original configurations.
Hmmn! ???
A bit of "Googling" and I think I may have clue.
I was assuming a horn would have a circular trumpet-like shape but some "Klaxon" products had a rectangular orifice like this..
(https://i.ibb.co/bPktvSy/klaxon.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bPktvSy)
The 1936 GWR Rule Book Appendix dealing specifically with these railcars says they had an "electric horn for sounding when stationary or moving slowly". That horn would have been a "Klaxon" since I have seen that name mentioned in reading books on the railcars.
If you look at the shape of that "gadget" fitted on the oil cooler bracket (I also have side-on views) it appears to match the profile of one of the pair shownn in the picture above.
So I think they were delivered with a Klaxon at each end but still am not sure where the exhaust-driven whistle would have been.... unless it is the "shiny" bit sticking sideways to the right of the Klaxon.
John.
I'm going around in circles with this constant backpeddling, why not get in touch with the railcar guys at the Great Western Railway Society?
Who incidently have two pairs of GWR cast bronze air horns fitted on No.22 at Swindon works - from new.
Several years ago I did make an enquiry and received following from a helpful chap who was a researcher at the NRM. The "Klaxon" is mentioned as being the original type fitted but subsequent details are "sketchy".
No.22 (the example at Didcot) and all the other Swindon-built (razor-edge) cars were fitted with Desilux E-flat and G-flat air horns from new (the order paperwork is copied in Judge's book).
Regards,
John.
Greetings John,
I'm fortunate enough to have both Russell and Judge (plus the supplement to
Russell) plus other source references to these beautiful cars. I've also some
very crude photos I took at Swindon when some were on the scrap line around
1960.
You ask about No 12 particularly, but this was one of 10 ordered together (8 -
17), which were all the same, except that the last one's body was modified as a
parcels car. There are some variations in the positioning of the horns, which
might suggest some difficulty in getting the right sound level on the track -
and this is born out by remembering conversations with staff who recalled them
in service. Russell, P67, shows No 11 with horns mounted each side of the
drivers cab (Aug 1938), just below the side windows, and there is a 4mm to the
foot drawing by Richard Bird showing this also.
However, in general the position seems to be below the front "buffer beam",
centrally, two horns, and above the air intake grille. Russell, P68, shows a
photo of No 13 following an accident, with the horns sticking out of the front
in this position (1938). There are later photos of the cars in later years
with 3 or 4 horns in this position (W14W at Birmingham Snow Hill - Russell
P141). Again this was probably to increase the volume for on-track staff.
Whilst writing this, I've turned up what I wanted - a reference to mounting
additional air horns alongside the driver's window as I mentioned before.
(Russell P52). This shows No 17 (Russell erroneously calls it No 5) fitted with
these horns (1939), and says they were necessary after complaints from permanent
way gangs of the stealthy approach of the cars. The modified horns were said to
be audible for three miles! Nevertheless, these horns seem to have been
removed again fairly quickly, from the photos in the books.
Judge writes "..the first cars were supplied with normal electric klaxon-type
horns, one at each end. These were unsatisfactory, due partly to the note
produced being liable to confusion with road traffic, and partly to the fact
that the sound was insufficiently penetrating. Eventually two-note horns with
very strident notes were installed, and provision made for them to be operable
whether the car was moving or stationary." He doesn't say where these were
fitted, but there are other references to "stand-by" horns being provided later
for use when the car is stationary and the compressed air is not available.
"These are sounded by small independent compressors operated electrically, and
provide a warning signal similar to that given by the main horns.
I think these auxiliary horns may be the ones fitted by the cab windows, but I
can't see them in later photos, and the next design of car, No 18, did not have
them. It, and the later Swindon built series had them mounted in the buffer
beam area.
I have never seen photos of them mounted on the roofs of these cars; this might
have been tried once as an experiment, but neither Judge nor Russell have
pictures of it.
I hope this is of help to you. I can scan in some of the pictures or text if
you want them, and send to you off group.
Regards
Blair
Quote from: John Candy on Dec 26 2018 16:26No.22 (the example at Didcot) and all the other Swindon-built (razor-edge) cars were fitted with Desilux E-flat and G-flat air horns from new (the order paperwork is copied in Judge's book).
Regards,
John.
See what I mean about going around in circles?
The Air Horns on 22 are cast bronze with GWR initials on them, and come as TWO pairs 'Main' and 'Backup' both pairs of which have differing bell sizes and tones between them. That is four horns in all. Two different hi-notes and two different lo-notes. That is four different notes in all.
These GWR designed air horns were the precursor to the BR standard Air Horn specification.
Unfortunately, this forum does not appear to allow sound files to be loaded otherwise I'd post my sound recordings of No.22 demonstrating the fact.
Bob,
I have created FTP account so you can upload your sound file to gauge3.info .
The account details I have emailed to you.
Since my model is being finished in ex-works 1935 condition, the electric Klaxon horn seems to be the way to go but your recording of the Desilux air horns will be an interesting addition to the Wiki files for future reference purposes.
Regards,
John.
John,
My recordings are not of desilux air horns, they are GWR Swindon Works air horns
Bob,
Stores Superintendent, Swindon, placed orders for bronze horns with black trumpets in E Flat and G Flat (and associated compressors, valves, etc.) with C.V Desiderio, London, W1 in May 1939 and further orders thereafter. The Brand name was "Desilux" and is quoted on the order forms. These horns were for the new-build razor-edge cars.
I am pretty certain that these will be the horns which you have seen and recorded (although the compressors etc. will likely have been replaced later through wear and tear).
Regards,
John.
This order is three years after the introduction of the railcars, these may be replacements for the original GWR cast bronze horns.
Bob,
The first of the Swindon-built railcars (No. 19) was not completed until early 1940 (official photo of car ex-works is dated March 1940) and the first running trials were carried out in May.
It seems odd that, with the war under way, resultant shortages of steel and imported heavy oil, that the GWR were permitted by the Ministry of Supply to continue the construction of oil-burning vehicles...... at a time when road vehicles were trundling around with inflated bags burning gas and the oil imports were required by the military.
Regards,
John.
The point being?
The horns ordered in 1939 were fitted to cars No.19 onwards, which would have included No.22.
This thread (which was aimed at helping anyone building one of these kits to get the detailing correct, without having to spend hour upon hour searching though books and websites) has transformed into a discussion on whistle and horn sounds.
Each railway company and CMEs of those conpanies fitted whistles which were distinctive in their sound.
Now soundcards are being widely used, it would be useful to have a library of reference files to help "tune" those cards to suit the loco.
Bob has the horn sounds for the Swindon railcars, has anyone else here any steam whistle (or air horn) recordings taken from specific loco classes, which they would be willing to upload to a G3 Wiki resource library?
John.
Quote from: John Candy on Dec 27 2018 09:50
Bob has the horn sounds for the Swindon railcars, has anyone else here any steam whistle (or air horn) recordings taken from specific loco classes, which they would be willing to upload to a G3 Wiki resource library?
John.
As a novice on such matters John, are you meaning purely for interest's sake that we can then listen from the site, or do you have in mind that clever people can download such to their own sound card and use in their own locos?
If the latter is possible then a blow-by-blow account of what equipment would be needed, including the sound card itself, and how to approach the task, would be a very useful source. The only sound recording I have, as an example of what many probably have too, is a soundtrack on my iPhone of a Peak Sulzer idling.
Regards,
Tim
Tim,
My initial intention had been to use files to tune "by ear" the generic sound cards (e.g. the MyLocoSound cards which I use in all my locos) but if someone with the time and expertise wishes to do the "homework" to provide a circuit diagram for a card to accept such recordings, then that would be a good addition to the G3 Wiki.
Regards,
John.
Tim, John,
I have made a start
http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,2120.msg14581.html#msg14581
But would something like this in 16bit CD quality be of interest? This is a very old project for Digitraxx made almost a decde ago.
(https://i.ibb.co/4tjpQQw/Digitrax-GWR-Railcar.png) (https://ibb.co/4tjpQQw)
There is a cheap sound chip card on Amazon for £1.50. That could be all that would be needed for a horn.
Regards
Ralph
It has been at least 13 years since I first started on this kit and there was a time when it was causing so many problems that it was almost abandoned. However, it has been completed and was today given its first outing on the track.
It performed faultlessly, to my surprise, considering all the trouble it had caused, including replacement motors.
The MyLocoSound "Universal Diesel" card which has a wide selection of engine and horn sounds (including the Klaxon, which I needed and a diesel mechanical railcar with gear change option) gave credible performance, including brake "squeal" as it came to a halt. At first I thought it was mechanical noise from the bogies but on re-reading the programming instructions, it does have a multiple selection brake option which I had not disabled and will leave "on".
(https://i.ibb.co/8cY3gSp/No8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8cY3gSp)
No.8 glides across the viaduct displaying "express" headcode.
(https://i.ibb.co/wRhKvqw/No8a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wRhKvqw)
Brought to a stand at wayside halt by signal check.
(https://i.ibb.co/syWHZ1C/No8b.jpg) (https://ibb.co/syWHZ1C)
On its way again towards the terminus.
Since my previous post, I have suffered a sound card "burn out".
Peter Lucas has looked at problem and confirmed that a voltage spike from the motor circuit has caused the problem. The card is being replaced under warranty but I am anxious to avoid a repeat (there were two yellow flashes followed by burning smell and I had to partly dismantle the car to extract the card).
Peter's engineer has advised fitting a Transient Voltage Suppressor (TVS) diode across the card terminals M1 and M2 (the input from the motors) which will absorb any surges and protect the card. The Stock No. from RS Components is 486-4274 "STMicroelectronics 1.5KE24CA, Bi-Directional TVS Diode, 1500W, 2-Pin DO-201".
I have not had any similar problems in the past (the railcar is my only model with more than one motor) but I shall be fitting this protection to all my cards in future.
John.
Having replaced the burnt out sound card and refitted the roof, I then turned my attention to something else which had been nagging at the back of my mind. The ventilation for the engine compartments is of wire mesh but on the model there was just a gaping void behind the mesh; you could see right through to the other side! I had already ditched the very coarse mesh supplied with the kit in favour of finer, etched brass, mesh and something had to be done about the "see-through" engine compartments.
Initially, my intention had been simply to "blank" internally with plain, black-painted, plastic card. After again looking at the drawings and photos in Colin Judge's GWR railcar book, I decided that the aluminium colour of the pair of AEC/Ricardo (London bus) engines which powered these railcars would look much better but not painted on a piece of card!
Next task was to make a pattern for a low-relief model of the engines and cast them in resin. They are not finely detailed but are of a reasonably accurate outline of the engines which, when the light catches the aluminium paint, will be visible through the mesh.
If anyone wants to improve their model with a couple of these castings, they are available for the cost of the postage.
1) General view showing ancillaries in black (dynamo and vacuum exhauster) and pale grey (fuel pump and injector control) remainder aluminium colour. The rocker covers (with the AEC trademark inverted triangle) can be seen in through upper grille.
(https://i.ibb.co/M2srVKW/aec3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M2srVKW)
2) Closer view showing water cooling fan and exit from radiator duct.
(https://i.ibb.co/st15xcj/AEC2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/st15xcj)
When Mark Thatcher came to take photos of the Sentinel "Plantagenet" for a "Garden Rail" article (due April/May) he insisted on playing with my "Flying Banana". He has had a similar (but track-powered example) for several years and has been wanting a radio-controlled/battery railcar, so I offered to convert his.
At the same time, I "upgraded" it in other areas with new resin castings and other additional detailing.
Today, he called to collect it and made a brief video (in bitterly cold conditions) which can be seen at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOtgKwxM78w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOtgKwxM78w)
The modifications included making new bogie cover fairings for one side since, for the purposes of a "Garden Rail" review some years ago, he had cut away and discarded the fairings on one side.... hence the unpainted areas.
Mark has the remnant of the spray can of Railmatch paint he used originally, so will be respraying the affected areas tomorrow.