To be honest .... I think the price is wildly optimistic!!! It is powered by a Basset Lowke boiler motor as shown in several of the HG books.
Item number is: 123719601326.
Regards
Ralph
Can you give the link to ebay Ralph, as I get nothing searching on that number?
Thanks, Tim
I seem to have found it.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-ELECTRIC-LOCOMOTIVE-3-RAIL-STEAM-ENGINE-21-2-INCH-GAUGE-4-4-2/123719601326?hash=item1cce434cae:g:6zIAAOSwmWNco4rf
"MANY OF THESE ELECTRIC HEAVY BUILT LOCOMOTIVES ARE HIGHLY COLLECTIBLE AND CAN FETCH MANY THOUSANDS AS THERE SOMETIMES ONLY LIMITED NUMBERS OF ELECTRIC TRAINS MANUFACTURED BY CERTAIN COMPANIES"
So I thought I'd ask £4,500 for it! :-)
Regards,
IanT
It didn't sell... I would be the first to admit that it was an interesting piece of G3 modelling history. Getting it running if the boiler motor has gone would require specialist winding equipment and techniques probably lost through retirement. I once went to Midland Magnetos in Nottingham with a Vertex magneto for repairs - only to find that the name was all they now had to do with magnetoes!!!
If it was running then maybe £300 for a genuine antique would interest me. But at £4,500 I don't think so. Hopefully it will be relisted at something rational...
Regards
Ralph
He relisted it again at £4,500...
Regards
Ralph
So I presume this will become one of those 'permanent' ebay listings that will never sell as the seller either has way too much money to recoup or no understanding at the value.
I think it is very nicely made. In particular the boiler mountings sit down to the boiler beautifully. Fully sprung with sprung sideplay on the pony. Is that a sprung plunger at he front and back for 3-rail pickup?
I suspect it is a model of something, but what? Furness? South Wales?
But I agree with the others, even half the price would be a lot.
Mike
Would you believe it..........didn't sell first time around so has now been re-listed at 500GBP more than before!
Now asking 4995 for (what looks to me to be) little more than a rusty lump of metal.
It even says it has not been tested and there is no guarantee it would run.......... these antique dealers must take us for mugs! It claims to be by "Bassett & Locke" (sic) which shows just how much the seller knows (or doesn't in this case) about model trains.
John.
Having read the ad again completely, it looks like the author is only partly literate as well as greedy. Mind you, we don't know the tale spun by the person who sold it to him!
John Branch
I did send a message to the seller the first time it was listed... His reply was "Thank you for your observations and comments... "
I have to admit that it does look like some of the locos made in Germany for B/L but they were at a far smaller scale. Could this be a "one on the side" out of the factory doors?
There has to be some reason that the model is so highly priced? But after having had no sale the last time, what that is -I cannot see....
regards
ralph
I hadn't noticed previously that there are three wagons with it too. I like the engine a lot. Looks to be well engineered, fully sprung and nicely finished off. Its just the price that is high. But the same vendor has a rusty LNER wagon plate for £200 and that's probably five to six times what its worth. And he has a photographic enlarger (plate glass projector) for £250 very similar to one I have and I'd be delighted with £25!
Mike
I think this is a Taff Vale Railway engine, built by Vulcan Foundry and with the raised bunker. It looks pretty accurate. That, in my opinion, is both "pretty" and "accurate"!
Think there is a founder member of the Gauge 3 Society with an interest in railways in south wales.
Mike
The number (172) is within the TVR series 170 to 175 which covers the 4-4-2 Tanks of Class "C" which were absorbed by the GWR and renumbered 1301 - 1305 and 1308. First three built 1888, joined by three more in 1891. They are said to have been the first 4-4-2 tanks in the country and had 3-cylinders. Initially used on express trains but soon fitted for auto-train working, sandwiched between four trailers (2+loco+2)
There is a photo of No 172 (as GW 1303) on P.117 of "South Wales Branch Lines" H. Morgan, propelling an auto-train on the Penarth line.
Notes say the Class "C" were all gone by 1927, made redundant when the GWR converted the trailer cars to the GWR auto train control system.
John.
Thanks John. Like this one:
http://www.penarth-dock.org.uk/09_04_100_03.html
But with the raised bunker.
Mike
Since this s a "private" board (only visible to G3S members), I have taken the liberty of scanning two photos from the book.
The first is of GW 1303 (ex-TVR 172) propelling a train on the Penarth branch ..... if you look closely, you can make out the untidy arrangement of cables attached to the chimney which was the TVR method of auto-train control .... replaced by the GWR system which made these locos redundant (photo attributed to H.T.Hobbs).
The second photo shows 174 dressed up to haul a Royal Train in 1912 (photo attributed to C. Batstone).
John.
So John, be honest, having looked into it and found its quite accurate, you really rather fancy it now don't you? But maybe at 25% of the asking price!
Well, I can now see some virtue in it and a good "going over" and a lick of GW green would make it more attractive!
If it were not a purely South Wales loco .... I doubt they ever left the area, even for major work, since they were never "Swindonised" with cone boiler and all the GW trimmings..... I might be tempted but not at anywhere remotely close to the "pie-in-the-sky" price being asked.
I suspect it was found in a loft (or shed) as part of a house clearance by a "chancer" who paid little or nothing for it.
Regards,
John.
I see his description now states he is blocking any "time wasters" who offer below his listed price.
Sorry your pile of rust isnt worth a tenth of what your inflated ego said it was. What a fool.
Also, did they ever supply photos of the 3 wagons supposedly with it?
Two of the wagons are lettered "W P". This is a (very!) long shot, but at one time builders often put their own initials onto the models they made and there was a W Pringle building Gauge 3 around the first war period. He scratch built carriages, so probably wagons also.
One of historic experts in the Society usually reads this forum and sends me notes, but so far there has been nothing from David!
Mike
Forever the optimist....... still asking £4500!!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-LOCOMOTIVE-STEAM-TANK-ENGINE-G3-2-5-GAUGE-ELECTRIC-3-RAIL-GERMAN/124085560704?hash=item1ce4136580:g:wkcAAOSwOuxc7RVp
He is allowed to ask! We can all ask for a few gold bricks to decorate the bank account, but we all know it will never happen...
At least the gold coins at the sweet shop have chocolate in them!!!
Regards
Ralph
Such a shame. If this went to the right home and was painted in full TVR livery it would be really nice. If only we had a prominent society member in south wales with an interest in old G3 and somewhere to run it ... oh, we do! Fingers crossed.
Mike
Here's another picture of the real thing
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Taff-Vale-Railway-Engine-At-Cardiff-Docks-c1890s-Photo/293476373445?hash=item44548e13c5:g:zE0AAOSwwD1eRwHG
Its nice! But not £4500 nice.
Mike
Our resident historian David White has identified the three wagons being sold with the engine. He says:
The WP wagons have a most interesting story. Basically they came from a working model colliery that was built from the early 1900's by a William Phelps. The working colliery took him and his wife 20 odd years to build, was 14' 6" x 8' 6" x 8' tall. It culminated in being exhibited in the British Empire Exhibition of 1923 and even had figures that walked! Is fully described in the ME of Jan 1925.
Unfortunately my volumes of Model Engineer don't come as recent as 1925, but perhaps somebody on here has access and can provide more details?
And David and I both think the 3-rail engine probably did not come from the same source.
Mike
Further to the above, a quick Google broight up an engine from the same colliery:
http://www.gcrauctions.com/sale262/lot163.html
A 3½" gauge live steam model, 'Dunalastair III' 4-4-0 locomotive and eight wheeled tender in Caledonian livery, lined white/black with many brass details. Entirely scratchbuilt by Mr William Phelps of Treherbert - using the found materials of steel, copper and brass. Oil fired watertube boiler with twin inside cylinders, substantial brass eccentrics and connecting rods driving cast brass wheels, detailed backhead and cab with operating doors and other refinements. The coal tender with working brakes, water tank and hand pump, separate, removable oil tank in its own fitted rear compartment, both have brass feed tubes atop tender. This is a superb model that is in need of some work if operation is required, loco burner is missing, fuel and water connections are partly missing, as is the smokebox door handle and lock wheel, lock shaft is there. The model comes with a fair amount of original paperwork, posters and photographs describing the build, exhibiting and exploits of Mr & Mrs Phelps. This loco was part of an extensive, fully equipped working model colliery, with pit-head gear with electric winding engine, associated buildings and other foundry shops, all working and electrically lit, constructed by Mr Phelps (who was employed by the Great Western Railway Company) over a fifteen to twenty year period. Other model locomotives were built to operate on this large model which was 17 ft. by 7ft.6", they were electrically operated also. The whole model colliery, with miners' vil £3000-5000
Why a south Wales colliery should have a Caledonian engine is a mystery to me and also the engine is 3 1/2in gauge. Curious.
Mike
Mike,
I've just had a look at the Model Engineer article (I have a nearly complete collection) and it certainly is a very extensive description. There are a number of photos that clearly show the two wagons that were on Ebay along with a 0-4-0 Peckett saddle tank loco. There is a photo of what I would say is almost certainly that 4-4-2 locomotive. It's difficult to read the number on the tank side but it does look like 172. If it isn't the Ebay loco then it is its twin.
The article also contains a photo of the 'Dunalastair No.3' but it just says that it was built by Mr Phelps at a cost of ' a few shillings'. He made his own patterns and had castings made from them. It was made following a series of articles that appeared in ME volumes 4 and 5. I don't think it was associated with the colliery model despite what the GCR auction says.
Interestingly, the article says that the colliery model was 14' x 8'6" x 8' high. Maybe he extended it later.
John
Brilliant, thank you John. So the engine dates from no later than 1923. It is exceptionally good for that period, which is why I thought it couldn't have been part of the colliery model. What a shame that it all lasted together until relatively recently, to be broken up and sold off now.
Mike