After exploring foreign railway territories, LBSCR, and LNWR I have returned home to Gods Wonderful Railway, were real engines are made.
One being an 850 class Saddle Tank, I built one of these many years ago in G1. They were the foruner of the ubiquitous Pannier Tanks and came in several versions. I have not seen one modelled in G3 so maybe the first.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/8B391mz/2020-plymouth-1921.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8B391mz)
image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
That will be very nice Mike. Interesting wheels - I don't suppose they happen to be 4ft 6in, because if they are then suitable ones are available.
Mike
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/DVq8h2J/P1120137.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVq8h2J)
The drivers are 4' 1 ½", as you say the tank engines had unusual wheels with square section spokes and no balance weights, an ideal candidate for the CNC mill.
Here is a test in ali made with a 3mm cutter.
Mike
Very nice Mike. I suspect the spokes are actually H section, but it hardly shows on a model, even in our scale.
Mike
Close examination of the photo shows the spokes are H-section. Etched overlays to simulate such spokes have been used in the smaller scales so why not Gauge 3?
Nick
Nick
All things are possible given enough time and effort, but we all take licence when constructing our models to our own satisfaction.
I admire those who go the extra mile to recreate the original.
Mike
You are right Nick and they are available in Gauge 3, but only 4ft 6in and 3ft 9in sizes to fit the cast iron T section spoked wheels made by the N2.5GA. The overlays are made by those people who do wagon kits ... they do some coach kits too ... what's their name ... WilliamsModels.
Mike (Williams) !
Never heard of them! :-)
IanT
Mike,
I didn't wish to imply that it was something one should do, only something one could do. It's a hobby, and we're all perfectly right to enjoy it in our own ways.
Nick (still thinking about CNC)
You are quite right Nick. Although many scratchbuild, I just feel sometimes people don't realise what is available for Gauge 3. In many (not all) ways we have a far larger range of parts than for Gauge 1 and maybe even some of the smaller scales. But, my website doesn't give everything (I'm not a web designer) and Walsall also have a lot of things not on their website.
Sorry to have hi-jacked your thread Mike - this should be an interesting build.
Mike
Well there are many ways to communicate seller wares, in the old days there was such a thing as a catalogue, where sellers sent information to prospective buyers.
If we don't know it's available how can we purchase??
Mike
Basic chassis of the Saddle Tank, front and back axle run in fixed bushes while the middle axle can float up and down. The low-cost motor /gearbox comprises of a motor with integral gearbox rated at 400 rpm driving Delrin bevel and spur gears to get the motor to clear the cab and sit in the firebox.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/QjqyJjp/P1120162.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QjqyJjp)
(https://i.ibb.co/HPh9JLN/P1120163.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HPh9JLN)
An ingenious solution Mike.
Have you used this type of geared motor before? I've found something very similar on eBay and they are not expensive. I also noticed a 16mm loco builder using one recently and wondered at the time whether they were practical in this type of application.
Regards,
IanT
Ian
If you look at this post
Motor choice
http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,2436.msg15942.html?PHPSESSID=7b56b03307c5792d887ce95e2b355cd2#msg15942
There is an exchange of views on these motors, I have used them successfully in several models, they come in different speeds.
Mike
Ah yes Mike - sorry, I'd forgotten some of the other detail from that thread.
I was very impressed with the CAD! :-)
Regards,
IanT
Looking for reference photos for the Saddle tank I found this excellent detailed and rare close up picture, difficult to date but a guess at the turn of the century also wonder who is the third individual!
Mike
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/yhZ2Znc/652-small.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yhZ2Znc)
Great image Mike - unfortunately, so many old railway photographs simply aren't this sharp.
A small peek at a (well worn?) carriage in the background too.
Regards,
IanT
guess at that time of fuller employment, the third man woul dhave been the shunter, however, he seems to be looking at the camera and looks fairly fresh faced or clean, so probably the camera mans buddy having a unofficial ride.
The loco carries a route colour (restriction) disc with power classification "A".
These were applied from around 1923/4, so the photo has to be no earlier than the mid-1920's.
In addition, the loco has been updated and is fitted with Collett buffers in place of the original Dean/Churchward type.
Is it an "official" GWR photo? Could it be a young Mr Collett in the shadows...it looks as though he could be wearing a bowler or trilby??
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2665/3778034422_460f20608d.jpg
John.
John
Thank you for your enlightenment, as to speculation of the third man who knows? but it's good fun.
Mike
I find it an interesting photo for several reasons.
It appears that the tank is coupled to the adjacent loco which is likely a modern Collett design (again see the pattern of buffer) and, from what can be seen, is in very clean (possibly ex-works) condition.
The (awaiting scrapping?) old carriage in background suggests it could be a works yard and possibly Swindon but I am unable to identify the background (are those trees in the distant haze)?
The fact that the photo is of exceptional quality does suggest it could be by the GWR photographic unit and it could be that the tank is hauling a "dead" new loco into position for its official photo to be taken, possibly with Mr Collett overseeing the operation.
Finally, I cannot recall having before seen that pattern of Collett buffer fitted to a small tank loco.... they are usually seen only on larger locos. I wonder if they were fitted to this loco for the specific purpose of strengthening to allow shunting of much larger and heavy locos.
If it is an extraction from a larger photo, it would be interesting to identify the class of loco apparently being hauled.
John.
I know very little about GWR engines, or indeed GWR anything. But, although the buffers look to be bright and shiny the rear vertical edge of the bunker looks dirty, there are streaks of dirt below both ends of the numberplate and a patch above the footplate just to the right of the opening to the cab. The streaks below the numberplate in particular do not appear after a few days or weeks. In short, it doesn't look ex-works to me but an engine that has been in service for a year or so.
Mike
Mike,
It is the loco to which the tank is coupled (and may be being hauled) that I think may be ex-works....see the shiny buffer head/shank.
Purely hypothetical but it could be Caerphilly Castle or another "first of class" being pulled into position for the photographer.
John.
Sorry John - I completely mis-read your post!
Mike
Quote from: 753 on Oct 14 2020 09:54
Looking for reference photos for the Saddle tank I found this excellent detailed and rare close up picture, difficult to date but a guess at the turn of the century also wonder who is the third individual!
Mike
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/yhZ2Znc/652-small.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yhZ2Znc)
According to The Beginners Guide to Pannier Tanks the photo is of 652 built in the first lot 645-655 (Lot O, 1872), showing the very short bunker length of the 645 class. It also illustrates how inconvenient the rear sandboxes were on many GWR tank engines. The loco has a set of Collett taper buffers, unusual for a tank loco. 24 September 1926. Picture courtesy David Burton.
(https://i.ibb.co/DMBzXDT/1280px-Wrexham-Croes-Newydd-Depot-geograph-2565549-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DMBzXDT)
The
GWR 645 Class was a class of 0-6-0 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0-6-0) saddle tank locomotives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_locomotive) designed by George Armstrong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_(engineer)) and built at the Wolverhampton railway works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverhampton_railway_works) of the Great Western Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway) (GWR).
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_645_Class#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHolcroft197136-1) Thirty-six were constructed between 1872-3, of which three were built for the South Wales Mineral Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales_Mineral_Railway) (SWMR), two for the Carmarthen and Cardigan Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmarthen_and_Cardigan_Railway) (C&CR) and the remainder for the GWR.
[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_645_Class#cite_note-FOOTNOTEle_Fleming1958E35-E40-2) In essence, they were saddle tank versions of his GWR 633 Class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_633_Class) of 1871.
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_645_Class#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHolcroft197136-1) From 1878 a further 72 of the class, partially enlarged, were added in the
1501 numbering sequence. Unlike the originals, the "1501"s had full-length saddle tanks from the start.
When built, they had 4 ft 6 in (1.372 m) driving wheels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_wheel) (later 4 ft 7
1?
2 in or 1.410 m due to thicker tyres (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_tire)) and 16 in × 24 in (406 mm × 610 mm), 16
1?
2 in × 24 in (419 mm × 610 mm) or 17 in × 24 in (432 mm × 610 mm) cylinders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_(engine)). Half-cabs were added a few years after construction. From 1918 all but eight of the class were rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes and larger, pannier tanks extending over the smokebox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokebox), and the 17 in (432 mm) diameter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bore_(engine)) cylinders became standard.
Most of the 645s and 1501s were allocated to the Northern Division of the GWR. Between 1910 and 1922 three more of them, Nos. 1806, 1811 and 1546, were transferred to the SWMR, and others too went to South Wales. Most were withdrawn in 1930s. Nos. 1531, 1532, 1538 and 1542 passed briefly into British Railways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Railways) ownership, but all went by December 1949. None has survived into preservation.
TTFN
Robert
Incidentally, No. 652 was withdrawn in March 1929, which narrows dowm the photo to the period 1923 to 1929.
John.
Quote from: John Candy on Oct 17 2020 21:16
Incidentally, No. 652 was withdrawn in March 1929, which narrows dowm the photo to the period 1923 to 1929.
John.
As stated in the previous post 24 September 1926. Picture courtesy David Burton.
Progress on the Saddle Tank, buffer beams and buffers, footplate and splashers.
Now for the saddle tank former.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/XVg4YSF/P1120194.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVg4YSF)
Making the water tank required a wooden former, this was made by laminating four pieces of 1x4in softwood, marking out the circle and cutting off the corners on the circular saw, and then turning to od on the lathe. I then cut the former just below half way line and rounded of the edges, using one of the strengthen ribs as a template.
The tank itself was made from three panels, the rivets were punched and panels soldered together with the middle panel overlapping the two outer ones. Holes were drilled for the chimney, dome, and safety valve, using these holes to fix with screws to the former the tank was folded over the former.
Three ribs were soldered inside, an end plate to connect to the cab and a front plate for the smokebox door.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/1sfj1gx/P1120197-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1sfj1gx)
(https://i.ibb.co/nfFNJcf/P1120198-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nfFNJcf)
(https://i.ibb.co/GW6fTts/P1120200-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GW6fTts)
(https://i.ibb.co/zPyfrQ9/P1120202-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPyfrQ9)
Good progress made this week it's starting to look the part, all the details cab interior and back head to do yet.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/sjmyLxP/P1120204.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sjmyLxP)
Another useful way to operate a CNC mill is to run the axis only with the spindle static. By grinding up different tool shapes such as a graver you can cut very fine lines or designs.
One example is loco springs, the leaves were cut with the tool shown a reground 1.5mm end mill on a 6mm shank, the profile then cut with a 2mm end mill.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/vdPJ9L8/P1120210.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vdPJ9L8)
The Saddle Tank is now complete, batteries are housed in the tank space and accessed via the smokebox door that opens, and the electronics are in the coal bunker.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/jLCp0vn/P1120323-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLCp0vn)
(https://i.ibb.co/2Wmc6GZ/P1120318-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Wmc6GZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wgwbq2p/P1120319-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wgwbq2p)