At the last committee meeting, John W showed a G3 coach which had been built using layers of pre-cut plasticard (supplied by a friend). The end result was an extremely neat scale model and one that delivers what is presumably a 'repeatable' process.
John mentioned that the machine used was available for "about 200 pounds" - which certainly made me sit and up and pay attention. After looking around the Interweb, I think he may have been refering to what is known as a "craft cutter".
Has anyone on this Forum, any real world experience of using a "craft cutter" on plasticard sheet for modelling (or any other) purposes?. If so, I'd like to hear from you.
Ian T
P.S. I don't know what machine was actually used for John's model - but I imagine it was something like this one here:
http://www.mycraftrobo.co.uk/Craft-Robo.html
Sheila says:
"It could also be a CRICUT machine- but since this is designed for cardmakers the standard cartridges are probably flowers and hearts? and thus less suited to locomotive and carriage work. The one in the URL looks like the best value."
regards
ralph
That is one of the other machines out there Ralph - but my (albeit limited) understanding is that the 'Cricut' machines only work with some form of pre-formatted (ROM?) cartridges that Cricut themselves produce and that you have to purchase individually. As you say, they come with various pre-loaded "craft" designs.
Nice for Birthday/Xmas cards - but not exactly what I had in mind.
However, I suspect that the market for these 'cutter' machines is still developing and the proprietary restrictions that the early providers could get away with are now being eroded by newer suppliers. I want to be able to dump a template direct to the 'cutter' - broadly the same way I do to the printer.
Low cost 2D CNC.....
Ian,
I have no experience of these machines, but a bit of Googling found Thyme Graphics (http://www.thymegraphics.co.uk/) who are quite local to me, and a lot of reviews say how helpful they are!
So I think it will be worth asking them what the maximum thickness of plasticard they could cut with either the Craft Robo or the more expensive Cougar machines.
Then prepare a test file and get them to do a test piece for a complete wagon / coach.
Do you have a test file ready? If so and you'd like to mail it to me I'll go and open discussions with Thyme. I have a part-built coach in '0' gauge using the David Jenkinson method, so I can take that along to explain what we're trying to achieve.
I'm also very interested in the possibilities of these machines - various Youtube videos show them engraving soft metals too.
Andy
Hi Andy,
Thanks for responding. The Cougar looks like a very useful machine - albeit at 534 pnds it's twice the price of the Craft Robo. However, with 950 grams of cutting force - it presumably can cut much thicker materials. I had a good look around their site and have been trying to understand what is going on "under the hood" in terms of the underlying software. Their primary audience are people who are designing 'craft' designs - and most of the software descriptions reflect this.
I did find this however:
Our BLACK CAT Converter!
Now you can convert all those files that are just sitting there on your computer! Convert ANY file* to a format that most other software packages accept.
Convert from gsd, knk, wpc, svg and from any file format with the option to print, they can all now be converted - EVEN print and cuts in full colour! Convert to Inkscape, Klic-N-Kut Studio and more**
*converts from any software with the option to print
**converts to all software that accepts pdf
This suggests that we could supply a design in a .pdf file and have it cut. In other words, I could use any CAD or other design software (to suit my preferences) and using a public domain 'printer to pdf' converter (such as Cutewriter) generate a cut file. This would be ideal as it would be a simple standard to use. However, it would be good to clarify this area.
I do not have a suitable test file available at the moment, but given some time could do so (I've got a Newsletter to get finished first). If you would like to talk to Thyme and see if they can advise on a) cut-depths possible in plasticard (and indeed cardboard), b) file formats usable and c) whether they will provide a 'cutting' service and at what cost - that would be very useful info indeed.
Regards,
Ian
Ian,
Email sent to Thyme to open discussions.
I think we share a common view of how we'd like the software to work for us, from a variety of different design sources - I can take dxf's, pdf's, etc to try out.
Will report back in due course.
Andy
An alternative to craft cutters may be low-power laser cutters designed for home use. They can cut plywood, MDF and some plastics (but not styrene). There is no need to go over the lines by hand and press the item our as they cut right through. But they can also cut part-way through, which is very useful. AND they can accept a standard .dxf input.
Look at some of the samples here: http://yorkmodelmaking.com/laser.html They offer a service at reasonable cost, but I don't know what machine they use.
A good test would be something like a straight sided horsebox? Or, maybe they could suggest what material would be best for a horsebox/carriage with tumblehome?
Mike
http://www.brunelmodels.com/LaserCutting/laser.html
These people have been offering laser cut carriages sides, etc. in plastic and plywood for a number of years.
Have often thought about trying them (their charge rates are on the site together with material thickness and other limitations) but have never summoned up the effort to prepare the "drawings" required.
They are in Australia but offer services to British modellers and other countries.
John.
"effort to prepare the "drawings" required"
I agree John, but the carriage they illustrate looks OK, so an easy test would be to ask them to scale it up and see what happens.
However, the one they illustrate - c1890 LNWR 42ft Composite - is amongst some etched brass kits due to be released by Walsall Model Industries, so maybe they have something else more suitable in their library?
Mike
Thanks Andy,
Look forward to what they have to say.
Regards,
IanT
To save opening up another topic on the same subject, can I be rude and resurrect this one to ask what the outcome was in the end?
I'm very keen on the idea of an automated cutter for styrene (an additional bonus would be being able to create stencils for lettering) so I'm interested as to whether IanT got any further or AndyB had a reply from Thyme.
I've had a look at the Black Cat cutters, but the details imply that their ability to cut styrene is 'limited' (the specs show 0.20ml styrene - wonder if that means 0.2mm thick) which is too thin really - I'd want the ability to cut 40 thou / 1mm as a minimum.
Thanks in advance
Steve
Steve,
I did some work on this and concluded that a CAD controlled router cutter was the only current realistic option. I am CAD literate but the cheap art cutters couldnt cut more than an A4 page approximatly, a bit difficult if you are trying to cut a class 73 side. The cutters that come reccommended are about 1500 - 2000 but after that there are limtless possibilities. I will get one but a massive workload and building baseboards means I havent purchased it yet. Decent units do come up on ebay...
Keith
Hi Steve - good point.
Well I can only speak for my investigations into this area and what I concluded at the time - although perhaps I didn't share it then (my apologies).
I had a good look at the various 'cutters' on the market and clearly there had been improvements to the technology and price/performance in the past year or two. Most of these machines seem to OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) out of China and are then re-badged (and are being distributed) out of the US. I don't have the figures to hand (I don't think I kept the details) but from memory there were cutters (like Black Cat) that were around the 250 GBP mark that would "score" plastikard but that were not muscular enough to actually cut it.
I also saw examples from AnD Products (who made the original LSWR 24' van kit that sparked the interest in "cutters") at Bordon this summer. I had a chat to the guy that runs AnD (Dave/Doug Tillman?) about the cutter he was using and it was a craft-cutter type of device - possibly Black Cat - cannot recall now. He agreed that they didn't really have the beef to do a complete cut through and that the kits needed further cutting (or snapping out in some instances) to get the finished part. This is not necessarily a huge problem and he had perfectly good examples of his G3 kits on show.
However, I wanted something that could do a finished cut in a thicker material, partly because I don't want to have to do too much "Laminating" and partly because if I'm going to have to do some manual work (to finish parts) it becomes less attractive as a "print to kit of parts" technology.
I did find some more expensive cutters (I cannot remember the chinese model numbers). These were about three times the price (at OEM volume pricing) but did generate about four times the cutter force. I could not find these available as a 'retail' product in the US though - so I'm not sure that they are available as a "hobby" system.
My conclusion was that the technology/price performance of "cutters" had not (yet) reached the point where I would want to own one and that for now, I'd be content to buy kits from suppliers like AnD that I think will emerge over time.
Others may have madde more progress though.
Regards,
IanT
Keith and Ian
Thank you very much for the quick responses. It seems you have both come to a similar conclusion regarding the craft type cutters, in that in their current 'hobby' specification, they are not really man enough for the jobs we would like to achieve. I guess that by the time you have gone for an OEM style of cutter with increased cut depth capability, one has started to encroach on the price of a CNC router mentioned by Keith, and a look on the web shows them to be hugely versatile.
Ah well, it was an interesting distraction while it lasted, I think longer term I shall have to save up and wait to see what happens. I'll be interested to see some AnD products at one of the shows though, it'll be interesting to see how someone else has dealt with the challenge.
Thanks again
Steve
Just spotted this (http://g1mra.myfastforum.org/about323.html) while surfing - using a cnc milling machine to make the basic components for an L&Y fish van. It is Gauge 1 (my other 'active' scale), but the principles are the same...and I currently find my mind full of ideas... :)
Steve
That's interesting Steve. The craft cutter option leaves a lot of work to be done by hand and the router a lot of work producing the bits, changing cutters etc. I can see this would not be a problem for making a one-off, but if (big IF) you wanted a batch I would prefer to make the body this way, complete all the details etc and then send it away for resin moulding. That way you only need to make the details once.
And, if you are geared up to simple, flat, single-sided resin mouldings at home, then you don't even need to make a complete body. John Candy makes sections, repeats them in resin, assembles them into the complete body, and that becomes the pattern. Less work in the long run.
Mike
I understand that the resin bodies are getting more expensive though Mike.
Is that partly because of the 'mold a whole body' approach - or in other words, would simple "sides" that need to be assembled be easier/cheaper to mold?
I must say that I really like the idea of the CAD 'router' approach Steve and it can be used for a lot more than just profiling plasticard - but a small CNC milling package (with Mach 3 etc) is still about 2,600 GBP from someone like Arc Euro Trade - which whilst I'd love to have one, is a bit too tasty for me.
I was interested to see a kind of "manual" routing system being used by a tram modeller in ME recently. He had a wood router set up with a form of copy-router system built on drawer slides. He then just moved a pointer over a master profile and the cutter followed the action. Sounds crude but seemed to work and almost certainly didn't cost too much. I don't see why some kind of similar manual system would not work on plastikard (and it's much more in my price range). Just a thought.
IanT
Sadly the Cricut would not be suitable, as it only cuts thin card attached to a backing layer and does indeed use pre-programmed cartridges...
... I know this as we re-versioned the US infomercial for the screens of the UK - so yes... it's all our fault!
BR
Markie
Ian,
Yes, you can "knock out" a van body as resin components for very small cost.....I haven't done a detailed costing but as a guesstimate I would suggest less than 4 GBP (and that allows for a 25% failure rate).
Regards,
John.
This is a bit off-ropic, but yes Ian, the one-piece body does add to the cost, as does employing a professional rather than making moulds and casting resin yourself. Some of us heard David White's talk at Derby which mentioned the dangers of casting reasin at home - basically unless you have equipment and experience, don't!
A mould for our size of vehicle costs between £250 and £450, depending on size and whether there are separate bits to be included. Body castings then cost about 10% of that each, again depending on the complexity, whether metal parts need to be cast-in, and the volume of resin used.
I leave the reader to calculate the figues. Take a large-ish goods van as being towards the upper end of the scale (£400), assume sales of 5 per year (yes, Gauge 3 sales can be that low) and a 3-year return on investment. That's a large chunk of the c£140 selling price which includes all the castings, bought in components like wheels, box, etc etc.
Mike
Yes, I suspected as much Mike.
I also suspect there will always be a divide (in economic terms) between what an individual will want to undertake and what a 'business' will need to do to be viable. A major part of this will either be in labour costs or what might be called 'capital costs'. My labour (should I decide to undertake a build) is essentially free - but is something actually "work" if you enjoy doing it? But capital costs represent real money to me and need a lot more thought.
I'm not sure it was stated at the beginning of this thread - but part of my interest in "cutters" was to see if we could set up some kind of "Library" of society templates - accessable (and contributed to) by the Membership - that would deliver a much wider range of G3 rolling stock. A "print-a-kit" would have allowed just the raw materials of such kits to be held - with no second guessing of future kit demand. However, I'm not sure the technology is there yet - if only in terms of a common design tool being available.
There are also other differences between the individual and business 'constructor' and I've touched on on an important one above. We generally all do this for fun and not to make a living (just as well in my case - I'd starve!). How often does the individual need to really mass-produce something?
As a fan of Star Trek, I have sometimes thought how convenient it might be to 'replicate' that model I would like to have. But then I also wonder how satisfying this would be and I suspect not very.
IanT
Lots of really useful information coming to light (for me anyway), especially the costs as detailed by Mike - a bit of an eye opener.
I liked your point about creating a reference library Ian - I hadn't got as far as thinking about that. My point of origin sits somewhere between the one off vehicle and building a batch for resale / commercial venture. I was looking for a potential short cut for building two or three of the same thing (think carriage panelling, G1 or G3, for 4 - 6 wheel coaches) and essentially looking to cut down on the difficult parts, whilst accepting that the main structures can be relatively easily and quickly built. Alas, the current technology does not seem to support that approach - one either needs to invest quite heavily (in which case commercial routes look appealing to try and claw back some money over time), or one accepts the limitation of the current products (ie not being able to cut all the way through 20thou plasticard) and lives with it. My concern with not being able to cut 20thou plasticard is the ease at which thin panelling could be cut out - I suspect a high failure rate if one snaps it out, a pain the proverbial if one has to go back over and cut through the existing lines (at least you might save on marking out time!). Out of interest Mike (and a little OT), how deep where the cuts on the AnD kits you have (just thinking whether half way or three quarters through etc)?
Steve
(Cough!)
If you read the entires on the Venture loco I do actually state that; "perhaps the legacy from the Venture project might be the data files rather than the physical parts"...
Mike, the yellow peril has been framed and I await the boards from Germany.....
regards
ralph
Steve,
I am not able to measure the depth of cut on AnD parts (how would you do that?), but so far they have all snapped out of the sheet quite easily and the only cleaning up at all has been in a couple of corners. For instance, the body end and headstock are in one, with an internal sharp corner between them. 80% snapped out fine and 20% left a tiny amount to clean with a knife. 0% caused any damage to the wanted parts. I have not yet snapped out the smallest parts - strapping. All I did with a knife was cut a cross in the window openings so the scrap came out in four parts instead of one.
With talk of knife cutting and routing nobody has mentioned lately the laser cutting service provided by the couple near York. That cuts right through, gives very fine detail, can cut more than 20thou and is not expensive. You send them a .dxf file and back come the parts, or so I believe, I've not actually used them. Unless you intend to mass-produce, that may be the best economic solution.
I like to be self-sufficient when it comes to parts supply, but have to accept that if I am to have time to make half the models I'd like, then I need to outsource some things to professionals and accept the risks to quality, cost, delivery etc.
Mike
Hi Mike
Sorry, wasn't suggesting you got the measuring sticks out or anything :D
My experience of plasticard is that when snapping off on a scored line, one gets a 'nib' or witness line on the edge. It was just a question of how close this 'nib' was to the bottom of the sheet, giving an indication of what the cut depth might be and the relative ease of snapping the piece off.
Pleased to hear no problems so far ;D
Thanks
Steve
Hi Steve,
Just looked at the Denis Tilman parts again and I'd say they have been cut half way through - 10 thou. That's enough to snap out of 20thou cleanly, but I don't think it would snap from anything thicker.
Just a thought, if the cut really is accurate maybe can you put it through twice?
Mike
Just an update on the Denis Tilman parts. Denis used a drawing from a reputable source, but somewhere along the line the width came out wrong - very wrong! We all make mistakes but to my mind what matters is how you deal with the mistakes. Denis heard about the error and called me to say a new set was in the post, before I'd had a chance to call him.
This doesn't help with the technology but gives an indication that he's an honest and dependable chap who deserves to be supported.
Mike
Sorry Mike, just realised I had neglected to thank you for posting up the information on the cut depth, my apologies (and thanks).
A good positive reaction from Denis regarding the issue with his kit of parts though. Is there a picture of either a built model, the kit or prototype floating around the internet anywhere?
Steve
Stangely enough there is Steve! ;)
Regards,
Ian T
Thanks Ian ;D
Looks very nice indeed - is that 'straight out of the box' or does it sport some IanT additions?
Steve
Steve,
You get the main structure including the strapping. Hinges and beading have been added by the builder.
Mike
I'm sorry Steve - I didn't intend to suggest that it was my work in the photo.
Dennis Tilman (of AnD) was at the Bordon GTG this summer and I had the chance to chat to him and look at several 'assembled' kits in both G3 and G1 - as well as the AnD kit packages 'as received'. So this is a sample of his work.
I took the snaps mainly in my capacity as Newsletter Editor but I was very interested in the potential for this new technology (as discussed in this thread)
Regards,
Ian T
Thanks Mike.
IanT - my assumption, my bad ;) Glad you posted the pic though, its nice to see the subject.
Steve