Good evening,
here goes. Im looking at building a live steam Loco based on the Y6 tram as I have a GRS resin body on the shelf. Now I only have access to a bench drill, hand tools and a vice. Im planning on getting the wheels, steam motor and frames from GRS and the boiler and fittings from Roundhouse or pick up one from Accucraft. ( I know its not going to be very scale inside!). So a few questions:
what is the distance between frames on the GRS locos?
are the steam motors any good, and how are they fixed to the frames?
My plan is to mod some GRS frames and coupling rods as I guess this is the best option for me?
I appreciate this whole project may look very poor comparing to what some of yoiu guys can do :-[
I adapted three of the GRS Y6 bodies to run on re-gauged "Cheddar" chassis.
Cheddar Steam is now defunct but if you can lay your hands on a secondhand 45mm gauge "Iver" (they crop up on Ebay occasionally...or GRS may be able to point you in the direction of a 45mm example...the 32mm gauge type will be of no use) they provide an excellent basis for the conversion.
The chassis has outside oscillating cylinders and is a powerful and very controllable design with ready-fitted R/C servo motor. When new they retailed at around 400GBP so a used example should prove more economical than purchasing a boiler, steam motor and all the associated gas firing parts.
The "Iver" design is now marketed by Stuart Turner but at a greatly increased price.
Regards,
John.
Thanks John,
what was involved in re-gauging it?
After removing the boiler and fittings, I sent the three chassis off to a model engineering company to be re-gauged (at total cost 700GBP for the three).
The procedure involved cutting through the axles to remove the wheels (the side-rods are retained by circlips and were removed first) the intermediate frame spacers and the outer frame ends/spacers are removed (screw-fitted) and the steam supply pipe between one cylinder and the steam manifold control block is cut.
The outer (end) frame spacers are re-drilled/tapped to required spacing and new intermediate brass spacers fabricated.
A sleeve is soldered to extend the the cut steam pipe to suit new spacing.
The original wheels were retained and the steel axles were sleeved to the correct gauge and drilled and pinned to the maintain the quartering.
I was not entirely happy with the re-cycled wheels and currently they are back with the company involved for new wheels to be fitted.
It would be possible to do the conversion at home by re-using the original wheels, the most difficult part would appear to be quartering the wheels with absolute precision.
A couple of photos of one of the chassis prior to conversion are attached together with one of the locos in the final GER livery (the other two are in LNER livery).
John.
Well...
Greetings from Kitchen Sink Engineering
I tend to do things the easy way. You require two Unit Steam Engine kits at roughly £30 each. They use Silicone tube for plumbing. These can be assembled with hand tools by my 11 year old son. They require 2 to 3 BAR pressure with no superheat. The boiler can be simply soldered together on a gas cooker -or better with a MAPP using bottle torch. The drive to the wheels is via lengths of chain and there is a chain between the two drive axles -thus the quartering becomes visual rather than accurate... (ie keep filing the holes into slots until the wheels go around).
Have a look here: www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/heilmann.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/heilmann.html) and here: www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/metrovick.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/metrovick.html)
regards
ralph
SAFETY NOTE by Admininstrator: Pressure vessels and steam must be treated with respect since they have the potential to injure. You should not follow advice given in this forum unless you have the experience necessary to assess the risks involved (particularly with respect to boiler manufacture) and possess the necessary skills and knowledge of safe practices.
Comment by Ralph : Anybody building a boiler should read K.N.Harris or consult the current ISO or DIN regs pertaining to pressure usage BS is not longer applicable. I am very practiced in the design and usage of pressure systems. Most of the computers that I designed used pressurised Sulphur Hexaflouride at 6 BAR using 400 series stainless steels. If you read the comments further down the thread you will see that I specifically mention CE marked boilers and Pressure testing.
Really appreciate the photos and details.
Given me food for thought, what is the distance between frames?
Thanks.
Matthew (11) has just pointed out that it would be possible to use a brand new boiler for a Mamod with the associated gas heating and pressure regulation available from PSS Steam to power your tram with USE motors. How much you gear them down is up to you -but given the "top speed"(?) of one of them I would suggest somewhere in the region of 10:1 to 20:1. The easiest way to do this is to use a worm and spur setup. Ideally you would need TWO "starts" on your worm and the worm will need to be supported at both ends -to stop high revs wobbling! I normally use Muffet gears -the Hostaform gears are superb and are not to be despised. But the nylon gears from Technobots are also suitable. One word about using and cutting Hostaform -it generates vast amounts of static and seems to be impossible to get out of woolen jumpers! Stick to MOD1 gears as this makes the maths easy (i.e. a 20 tooth spur is 20mm diameter...)
As to your platform a sheet of ply with a some Aluminium or Brass laminated to it with epoxy will provide all the support you need -as well as being light and strong.
Have fun and remember we are always here to help you.
regards
ralph
Hi Hornbeam,
Just a few thoughts - both for your project and for anyone else looking to build a tram-type engine.
First, it seems to me that quite a few modellers have a bit of a barrier when it comes to the engineering side of life. A few very simple skills and tools are all that would be required to make your own frames. An engineers square (for making 90 degree 'scribes') a small hacksaw and a medium file would produce the four 'sides' from 2mm x (say) 30mm wide mild steel strip. As the frames are esentially four rectangles - it could be done in an evening. You already have a drill - all you need to make these simple frames. The LBSC way was to use angle in the corners and screw them together. Still works just fine.
Making wheels, axles, bushes is more of a problem without a lathe - but not insurmountable. For instance - Brandbright sell very nice steel (3 hole) wagon wheels (with axles) which could be used either with outside frames and very simple axles boxes or inside frames with oilite bushes. I would not worry about coupling rods - you cannot see them on this engine - as its all hidden behind the skirts. As Cabbage suggests - a chain drive between axles is much simpler to arrange and the wheel you have removed can be simply Loctited back in place once you have your sprocket (and bushes if inside frames are used) on the axle.
With regards steam motors and boilers - well there are quite a few choices - although I have to say live steam within an enclosed resin body would not be my ideal choise (great for battery electric though).
Cannot tell you about GRS dimensions - but the G3 standard for the wheel back to back measurement is 58mm - so deduct 2mm (for clearance) and 2 x frame thickness (e.g. if 2mm thick = 4mm) and that will be the inside frame dimension required.
This probably all sounds a bit daunting - but having done it once, I think you will see how much better it is to be able to make these things yourself. It is not only a lot cheaper but also much easier when you want to do something that little bit different and there is no good way to do it with modified parts.
Not that I have any problem with modifying commercial bits - it's just that it's also very useful to have the choice - and the confidence to do so. The tram engine is an ideal type of engine to learn some very useful skills in my view.
Whichever way you go though - enjoy it and have fun!
Regards,
Ian T
Many thanks guys. Have no idea why I didnt think of making the frames/ chassis myself. This is the route i'll take and will keep you updated. In needs to be done as and when I can afford the parts. I think ive now got my hand on a boiler.
Another silly question. Any ideas on a good supplier of material for the frames? Looked on E-bay but postage puts me off. Guessing I could try sheet metal places for off cuts.
Excellent - that's the hard part over (deciding to try!)
I tend to have quite a bit of MS scrap available for most small jobs - but it sometimes saves quite a lot of time & effort to buy material that is at least the right thickness and width. Ideally I try to have a list ready for any shows I'm going to (Guildford is my favorite) - but it doesn't always work out like that.
I've used CES (College Engineering Supplies) for these 'special' bits in the past - and I've just had a quick look at their website here:
http://www.collegeengineering.co.uk/Materials/steelflatblock.htm
As you will see - they supply mild steel 'flat' in 12" lengths and it isn't that expensive - 1/16th (1.6mm) will probably be good enough for this job - although 3/32nd (2.4mm) will make a real 'heavy duty' frame. You'll need to work out the frame depth required though. I'd give CES a call and ask how much to post three lengths in the width you require. They are pretty helpful.
Nearly forgot - you will also need some MS 'angle' - 12" of the 16x16x3mm should do for the whole engine.
As Cabbage says - let us know if you need any advice - it's one of the reasons the Forum exists.
Regards,
Ian T
Try "Rob" at Mallard Metal Packs. www.mallardmetals.co.uk (http://www.mallardmetals.co.uk) He supplies me with all the bits cut to roughly the size I need. You need to clean all the metal beforehand though. I do not know what "Rob" using for cutting coolant but it leaves a layer that I would only describe as "chinese chicken dripping". Any de-greaser will work -even a bottle of "Fairy Liquid"...
To add to IanT's point about wheels and axles, if asked Brandbright will supply the wheels and axles as individual parts. The Brandbright axle is 1/4 inch or 6.3mm most gears are either this or 6mm bore -check you have the correct size drill for the job!!!
Steel is cheap -but Brass is easier to work (and it solders well). Small scale silver soldering can be done with a cooks blow torch -failing that stick to epoxy and use M5 or M4 threaded bar as your frame spacers and then epoxy the nuts to the side frames. I have made frames from Brass, Steel, and Paxolin sheet using this technique. As to having "just a pillar drill" -relax!!! I started making locos in 2001 with a black and decker in a press fitting. I bought a Mill and Lathe in 2008 when I had to -to make a specific wheel that everyone model engineering company said was impossible to make. Unlike other members of this forum I am a confirmed cheapskate and my "trains" budget is £10 per week.
The mark of a true scratch builder is not "how much does it cost to build?" but rather "where can I scrounge the bits to build it?"
Good luck with your boiler -remember it will need to be tested before you even contemplate raising steam or buy one from a certified Source CE marked(!). Boring though it may be to have it done, better this than digging out pieces of boiler from your flesh...
Keep us posted and good hunting!!!
regards
ralph
Hornbeam - just thinking about the mutitudinous ways you could aproach something as (apparently) simple as the basic frame - and I think we would very much appreciate the odd update as to what you decide to do - and why...
For instance - to spring or not to spring?
'Unsprung' enables very simple axle 'holes' to be used - maybe with some thicknessing plates added to make a better bearing surface - or for oilite bushes to be pushed into.
'Sprung' could be simply elongating one set of holes (as above) and allowing one axle to move vertically by a little bit - or something more 'technical' such as brass axle boxes set in angle-iron guides with coil springs above...
All of these methods work by the way - but part of the fun is deciding how you are going to do it.
Enjoy!
Regards,
Ian T
ive started sketching things out and hopefully have a Accucraft boiler sorted and have a burner and gas tank in stock. Will order material in the new year. Any good supliers of the gears and chain? Im currently looking at seeing if I can use ossy cylinders from PPS steam models along with their reversing block but need to work out how to fit it and connect the cylindrs up to the wheels. Reason for thinking this is that the GRS motor is so expensive, but at least its geared, either way it may need to go below the boiler between the frames. Progress will be slow no doubt. ;D
Just seen Cabbages latest post - and agree generally with what he says but do want to make one comment.
The use of brass and nickel silver is generally preferred in the smaller scales - as the use of "fasteners" to hold things together is far less common in these scales (size is an issue) and the use of solder or adhesives more the norm.
However - in G3 it is much easier to use a "nut & bolt" approach to most things - and this does have some advantages. You can disassemble things (for maintenance & painting for instance) and it also makes it easy to use cheaper materials such as mild steel. Mild steel is stronger (weight for weight) and takes a paint finish better than brass - so has its advantages too.
I make this point because I think we tend to use those things we are most familiar with and sometimes modellers who are 'upscaling' to G3 can forget that other methods and materials are available to them in the larger scale.
Regards,
Ian T
Technobots are HERE: www.technobotsonline.com (http://www.technobotsonline.com)
Muffet Gears are HERE: www.muffettgears.co.uk/moulded_gears.asp (http://www.muffettgears.co.uk/moulded_gears.asp)
Unit Steam Engines can be found HERE: forest-classics.co.uk/Unit%20Steam.htm (http://forest-classics.co.uk/Unit%20Steam.htm)
I am a little busy at the moment but in the morning, (when I am home), I will do you some "doodles" that might help you out.
As for "Springing" I use a simpler and cheaper solution -rubber!!! The locos and rolling stock from The Cabbage Patch Railway Workshop (and kitchen) use wedges of foam rubber to run on -looking not unlike inverted Monopoly houses!!! This provides a damped resistive medium. Hornguides et al can be made by "sandwiches" of brass sheet -or simply make them from Paxolin sheet -which has the added advantage of being self lubricating and easier to find than oilite... It is better in my view to have guides when you can -it gives you a nicer running loco. But it is not that essential given good track work.
regards
ralph
OK the ritual morning 1 litre mug of Cona coffee hopefully having done its job...
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/g3/doodle1.png)
On the yellow side of the doodle you see the axles, in their bushes or horns, the frames held apart with nuts
and threaded bar and the connecting chain between them.
One of the axles has two sprockets on it and in reality I would put two sprokets on each axle.
When the time comes that you have worn out the one driving the loco you simply switch it over for the other.
The green side shows the offset boiler, the two USE modules and the worm and spur drive to the driven axle.
The spur gear drives a sprocket with a chain drive to the driven axle. I normally use MFA/Como Drills
sprockets and chain.
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/smotorpic32.jpg)
I prefer to mount my spurs above the worms as this seems to produce a smoother transfer.
regards
ralph
Ralph,
With regards to the size of boiler, the Cheddar boiler supplied to GRS for the 32mm and 45mm gauged versions of the Y6 was 16cm long x 5cm dia. with an operating pressure of 45psi.
It will run for around 20 minutes with a light load between refills of both water and gas.
Although your excellent diagram is not dimensioned, the proportions of the boiler suggest it would have a capacity of less than half the Cheddar boiler (bearing in mind that the flue diameter will need to be large enough to accommodate the burner and thus reduce the water capacity).
I would also make the point that having the boiler "off-centre" does complicate the exhaust arrangement in that the Y6 chimney is positioned on the centre line of the loco.
It really depends on how accurate a model of the GER tram loco is contemplated.
Regards,
John.
John...
IT IS A DOODLE(!)
It is not dimensioned as doodle.apl does not have a dimension function and I did it all by eye -there is a limit to what even I can do with my two thumbs and a Blackberry. I think I did pretty well as the doodle is four times larger than the screen on it. If you want properly dimensioned DRAWINGS you will have to wait until I get back into gear with AutoDesk on my own quad core Macintosh -but at the moment you will have to suffer this while I get the decoration done in my home.
As to the offset boiler -so what? It is not beyond anyones ability to go to B&Q and get some flexible corrugated copper tube and custom bend a pipe from the outlet of the burner/flue to a vertical position, you could (just) do this with silicone high temperature tubing as well, but it would get very soft and possibly weep from the clamps.
regards
ralph
In case it helps, the photo below shows the power bogie for my (still unfinished) GWR Steam Railmotor.
Regards
Peter
Bit of progress so far. Ive ordered some of the material for the frames and looks like Ive found a geared steam motor. Im looking at boiler options. I still need the material for the side frames (off to look at the metal section in Homebase tomorrow) and chain drive.
Out of interest how much did you play for the boiler Peter if you dont mind me asking?
I will keep you all updated and will no doubt be asking more questions. Currentlt building a Brandbright RCH wagon that needs to be finished first- wonderfull kit.
If the material you need is mild steel you might try the local scrapyard. My local one has bins for different metals and you can wander around and select what you want, cut it off and the cost would probably be a donation in their charity box. However, at this time of the year it will be a filthy job searching for it!
Mike
Hello All
Try Blackgates at Dewsbury for mild steel . For gauge 3 the post ought not be too bad . Not related to the question , But does any one know how wide Blackgange base boards are ?
John
I have a feeling they are 3 foot wide John - not absolutely certain though.
Regards,
Ian T
When I purchased the boiler, it was the last one on the shelf at GRS. I'm afraid that I can't remember the price and a search of my credit card records won't help as I purchased other things at the same time.
The boiler was made by Tony Sant at Finescale Engineering so I should ask him.
Regards and Happy New Year to all
Peter
I had a phone call from Mark P this morning - to confirm that Blackgang track sections are 3' wide (and 4' long). He likes to have a good 6" from the front of the board (to the track) to prevent/discourage young fingers from touching the stock.
He doesn't have access to the Web by the way, so he is not on this Forum as such - but he obviously talks to lots of folk who are. So if anyone is going to invent a social network (Facebook) for the telephone - it's probably going to be Mark! ;)
Have a Great New Year everyone.
Ian T
It already exists.
I use my Blackberry for internet and doodling with.
And to be honest that is what I am using now to read this and send e-mails with...
regards
ralph
Hello All
Thanks for that , Food for thought . HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL . I am now off to sort it out !
John
well most materials have been borght, so i'll keep you updated when I make a start.
Hi all,
My tram isn't going as well as i'd hoped as there simply isn't the room for the 'railmotor' set up i planned on. So im now thinking of using some frames and cylinders from PPS steam models as used on the their upgraded mamod type loco. I will be able to get frame spacers from GRS or use studding.. However the problem is wheels. Does anyone know of an engineer who could re-gauge some mamod wheels for me? course the biggest problem will be the quartering.
Thanks,
My Mamod was built from a kit -when I was living in a flat in Rotterdam.... It has been "Mamodified" several times since then and its current axles are simply lengths of 4mm steel rod. I tapped the ends of it and then tapped the wheels to the same thread. This gave me one end that was "solid". A couple of dobs of sleeve retaining compound and they have never moved since. The other end was a plain push fit -into which I dripped thin CA. As to quartering I nudged one side down as far it would go and then nudged the other side until it was level and then left it overnight on the side to set solid. A little fiddling with a hand brace and a roll pin squished into the hole through the wheel and axle took around 30 minutes to do. It has been running around happily this way since before I got married (15 years????)
regards
ralph
Ralph,
Sounds like a very practical solution to an otherwise tricky problem!
Another of your useful "kitchen table" type solutions. :)
Wish I had known of it before I sent away my 3 chassis to Lynx Model Works almost 5 years ago.
Your posting prompted me to send them a reminder that I expect them back before I am too old to enjoy them (they have been returned twice as unsatisfactory and have already cost 700GBP).
When is the book (or eBook) "100 Practical Solutions to 100 Tricky Model Engineering Problems" to be published? ;)
Regards,
John