???
As a completly new starter to G3 and having read the mags for the past year I am now ready to start constucting my Garden Railway.
I see that the society shop has a variety of bits for the construction of trackwork but WHERE does one find out how to construct using these bits!
I have purchased some track from GRS but would like to support the society shop and learn how to do it for myself.
Any books I should be reading??Articles to read etc.
Any help would most useful.
Tim
Try here...
http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/scaleandgauge.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/scaleandgauge.html)
http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/g3track.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/g3track.html)
http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cornering.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/cornering.html)
http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/trackplan.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/trackplan.html)
http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/construction.html (http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/construction.html)
I have a few books on the subject as well...
regards
ralph
Hi Tim,
The Society offers two solutions to track building. The first (let's call it the more traditional approach) is to use wooden sleepers with white metal chairs and construct the track along the lines that Ralph suggests below (either in a jig or by using a template to lay sleepers). The other solution is to use the Society's plastic sleepering which comes with molded chairs in place and a simple plastic 'spacer'. These you can literally just slide onto the 3' bull-head rail lengths to quickly make up robust and scale track.
The Society rail is a scale bullhead in brass and you can obtain similar stainless steel rail section from Cliff Barker. Some Members prefer this but personally I like the brass rail (and it very quickly weathers in). You will also have to make 'transition' points between the scale track and the GRS sections but this is not difficult as they are the same gauge (just different rail profiles)
So the track is fairly straight forward and the only big question on simple straight or curved sections is what radii curves do you want (or need) to use and (if twin track) what spacing (clearance) do you need.
The thing that worries many people (in all scales) is how to build turnouts (or 'points' as some call them).
This is actually not so difficult and the Society can also help newcomers here as they are producing both templates and jigs to help you make the key parts and to help lay them out correctly. For garden use simple is probably better although some members have built quite complex crossings for their layouts. As mentioned recently, there will be a set of instructions on using these jigs in the next Newsletter. There are also many good sources online (albeit mainly in other scales) that will show perfectly good ways of doing the job in G3 - the basic principles are the same.
However - the choice of materials for turnouts begins to get more complex here, as the plastic sleepering is in effect made to pre-set dimensions and (unlike straight sections) some modification and adhesives are required to build a turnout. For simple (outdoor) turnouts - I think I would still recommend the use of the plastic sleepering system although you will read elsewhere that I only use wooden sleepers/timbering and whitemetal chairs.
The reason for this is that for exhibition and modular use - where the builder may wish to reflect actual practice by one railway or railway era (or where more complex configurations are needed) then I think that the ability to customise wooden sleepers and timbering still makes the white metal system very useful.
So in summary - the Society plastic sleepering system is recommended to you and once you've mastered this (and it won't take too long) then a simple turnout should be the next (not too large) step.
Regards,
Ian T
Hi Tim,
I'd made a mental note to dig out a link to a website I remember looking at some time ago, that gave an excellent step-by-step pictorial guide to laying a turnout by hand (in G '1' or 'O' I think it was). Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me find it now and I don't appear to have bookmarked it either.
The best I've found so far is the C&L site that does have a PDF download (Easy Turnout Construction) that pretty much describes the process - obviously using their templates and components but this will be very similar to using the Society equivalents.
The PDF can be found here:
http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27&Itemid=2
Anyone else here got a good link to a step-by-step "pictorial" guide to building turnouts for Tim??
Regards,
Ian T
Many thanks Ian & ralph
I'll read up and make a start.
Tim
Hi Tim,
I too am a novice therefore my knowledge and experience is very limited. As such I hesitate to make any suggestions. Ralph, Ian, et al have forgotten more than I will ever know. One of my recent posts said how little I know of what is out there. I did however successfully make sets of points and found the book Track Construction from KRB Publications very helpful.
The book comes with a CD Rom which features the Trax layout package. As well as dealing with drawing the whole layout it produces full size drawings of just about every point, diamond crossing, double and single slip you are ever likely to need. The drawings are a bit tedious as you print them in A4 sections and join them together, but they do work.
The 'older hands' will no doubt direct you to better solutions but I found the book alone good value at circa £16. The Trax package has been invaluable in fitting a complex main line system into a very difficult location.
One other point, forgive the pun -I purchased a length of 2 1/2" x 1/8" flat aluminium bar for just a few pounds. It was absolutely spot on 63.5 mm wide. It has been very useful for making track jigs, guides etc. particularly for diamond crossings.
As I have said, there will be better solutions. That is why I joined the forum as I felt I was reinventing the wheel a lot of the time. However it has cost me nothing to let you know what this particular novice has been doing.
Regards,
Roger.
Well Roger (novice or [perhaps] not) you have some interesting ideas here.
I've not heard of this book before (do you have the ISBN number?) and if the Trax software allows you to print out scale 'templates' in G3 then it sounds a like real bargain!
I'm also interested in how you are using that 2 1/2" aluminium section to build jigs?
More info please - and also one or two photos if possible?
Regards,
Ian T
Ian,
The ISBN number is ISBN 0954203593. The templates are just that, they do not specify chair types; they show switch blade positions and lengths, recommended sleeper positions and lengths, etc. I have to admit that I have slightly modified the recommended sleeper positions having looked at some of my second hand points which appeared to have better layouts.
Trax 2 is, I think, like most CAD packages in that you draw layouts full size. Layout settings have to be defined only once - the G3 wheel standards, the scale ratio, the desired distance between parallel tracks and the overall size of the site limitations. It then defines clearance lines. It also is intelligent in that it matches crossings to the adjacent points to maintain desired track spacing. The bottom half of the screen has a control panel for electrified layouts. I have not used this. There are some tedious shortcomings which are irritating rather than pivotal.
I started on site using huge 20ft radius wooden templates to check if my pre-made second hand track would fit. Using Trax 2 has been a godsend.
As for jigs, I will try and send photos. They hardly warrant photos as they are so simple. The word " jig" may have implied something sophisticated. I have made a cruciform jig for diamond crossings 1 : 5 and 1 : 6. It was just a case of joining three pieces of 2 1/2" flat using a Trax template. The only welding I can do is aluminium welding but I feared distortion. The lengths are crudely joined with straps and 4mm bolts. Initially wood screws secure the aluminium flat in position on the plywood-mounted template. The first permanent 4mm fixings are in tapped holes so that nothing can move. I also use a 3 ft length of flat for straight track. The beauty is that it is exactly 63.5mm - no filing etc.
I claim novice status as my only previous experience in any gauge was a temporary 45mm oval ( mainly LGB track) that had to be removed after 6 months due to moving house. I did a bit of GRS ng coach kit bashing. That was 6 years ago. Gauge 3 is my new love - it is a wonderful gauge in which to model, as we all Know.
Regards,
Roger.
Very interesting Roger.
I'll have a look out for that book - although I invested in Templot some years ago. But I think it does make life very much easier to have a template to build to.
I also think the photos would help clarify what you are doing - so yes please.
Regards,
Ian T
P.S. "The only welding I can do is aluminium welding" - well that's something I've never ever attempted for a start - probably because my manual arc welding efforts (to date) have not exactly been works of art I'm afraid
Ian,
Like you, my welding efforts to date have been awful, unlike you, I cannot solder successfully. Low temperature for white metal, soldering Cliff Barker's stainless steel rail even soldering brass - I am hopeless. Aluminium welding however is far easier - no flux required. You may be familiar with the Techno-Weld system that I use (admittedly some time ago) www.techno-weld.co.uk.
The great thing is it welds at about 380 c, 200c below the parent metal's melting point. 'Puddling' the molten filler rod with a stainless steel rod creates a chemical reaction which in turn creates a massive heat build up - enough to melt the aluminium. The level of heat application is therefore not massively critical. The instruction video - yes it's that old - showed something like a 1/8" - 1/4" aluminium plate welded to a Coke can. Have not tried that.
I am likely to be away again for a few days - will send photos on return.
Regards,
Roger.
I'm sure we are drifting off-topic here Roger but....
Although I'd heard of Techno-Weld, I had never looked into the detail. Having done so I've book-marked their site, as although I have no need to "weld" aluminium in the forseeable future, this product could be very useful for some repairs.
From what I can gather - it is more of (what I would call) a brazing technique so there is no specialist equipment required as such. The kits consist of the 'welding rods' and a steel abrader. They didn't look too expensive either (not if you need to repair an aluminium casting that is).
Thanks. Useful info.
Regards,
Ian T
PS I've never tried soldering to stainless but understand it's about having the correct flux. Brass is straightforward given sufficient local heat - which means it's generally easier to do things before you lay the track where possible. A small hole drilled in the rail side and a copper wire soldered into it makes it easy (and neater) to bond rail lengths together for instance - rather than trying to do it after the rail is laid.
Ian,
Now back at the ranch, thanks for your post of the 11th.
I still need to make crossings/points from stainless steel rail. My initial efforts at making the vees were abysmal despite Cliff Barker kindly providing a suitable sample of solder and acquiring the correct Carr's flux. I used a 100w soldering gun but this appeared to give too little heat ( maybe too small a bit?) so I used a small blowtorch for supplementary heat. Having sought advice, I was told that I was probably using too much heat which would reduce the functionality of the flux. Following this advice to reduce the heat has only resulted in about a 50% success rate.
I could do with some help to build these points/crossings. Can someone help regarding guidance on what type of soldering iron and what size of bit I should use? Presumably this is were I am going wrong or is there some other fault in my technique? I would appreciate any relevant advice.
My reference to aluminium welding was knowingly an aside, one which I thought unlikely to enhance your knowledge. I took the opportunity post the point for general interest given the number of very experienced modellers that I have met who have avoided the task because they had not heard of the technique. I accept that this was off-subject.
Thanks again for your help.
Regards,
Roger.
With the proviso that I've not tried stainless Roger - soldering (or brazing come to that) is about heating the metal to be joined to a temperature high enough to melt the solder (or brazing material) onto it. So it's not too hard to know when things are hot enough - when touched to the work - the solder will melt & flows into the work. The common mistake is that people try using the 'heat' to melt the solder on to the work. I'll assume you know this though because of your 'ali' soldering.
So I'm going to guess that the 100W soldering iron you've tried might be one of the 'instant' gun types?
I have a 100W version of one of these and it doesn't seem to have the guts to provide the required heat on larger jobs. It is great for electrical work (soldering wires etc) because it heats up quickly but that's not what we are after here. We need a bit of a heat 'reserve'.
There are clearly three things needed for a good joint. First is that the parts to be joined have to be clean (or freshly machined) - the flux keeps it that way. The second is that you need to be able to hold the parts in the correct position whilst you apply the heat. The third is getting enough heat to the parts.
So for instance - I have a lump of mild steel about 8" x 4" x 1/4" which I use on the kitchen gas hob to 'pre-warm' larger bits to be soldered (when a certain person is not around of course). I heat this up, with the parts I want to solder on top and that gets the general temperature of everything up (plate & parts) enough to soft-solder straight away or with a quick lick with my butane gas torch enough to silver solder. I find its cheaper and easier than trying to do everything with the torch (gas refills are expensive!)
However, I've always soft soldered my brass V's using a simple wooden jig (well Ok a lump of wood with panel pins holding the rail in place - with the joint hanging over the end) - but using the gas torch. The wood burns a bit but who cares. If I wanted to silver solder them, it might still work with the wood (if you were quick) but I would be tempted to use my heating plate as a 'hot jig' (using small clamping plates held by screws set into tapped holes).
You would have everything held securely in place, with plenty of heat for this size of job. Then I suspect it's about reading the instructions for the flux carefully and testing the temperature of the work with a piece of solder to see if it melts - when it does - remove the heat and apply your solder.
Of course the Society already have something similar - in their 'crossing nose filing jigs'
Regards,
Ian T
Just a thought.....
Mike W - is there somewhere at the AGM venue that could be used for a demo of soldering stainless crossing V's?
If so, would Cliff Barker (or someone else) then be persuaded to do a demo, which could be videoed and added to our website resources?
I could bring along a small flame propane torch & bottle, and the a video camera if required.
The same could be done for soft soldering steel (as used in Mike's wagon kits for the axleguards) - although I could make that video at home, since I've done enough of them now to know how it's done.
John C - how much capacity is there on the web site for a set of video 'help' resources specific to G3?
Andy
Had a quick look at what technical advice was available online - and found this advice from the British Stainless Steel Association which seems to be a good summary.
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=150
An interesting quote from this source is:
"All conventional methods of heating can be used for soldering stainless steels. However, the thermal conductivity of austenitic stainless steels is relatively poor and their coefficient of expansion is high, so that care must be taken to ensure that the whole joint area is brought uniformly to soldering temperature without overheating and distortion is a possibility in long joints. The latter may require jigging."
Regards,
Ian T
The problem with Stainless is the fact that it contains Chromium... Chromium is a transition metal and exhibits a number of oxidation states CrII CrIII and CrVII. Soft soldering it is thus very hard. Silver soldering at high temperatures (sufficient to reduce any oxide to metal) is your best bet. Titanium has EIGHT oxidation states plus the fact that it is: amphoteric, and forms dative or co-valent bonds. This is the reason why Titanium is normally referred to as "The Nymphomaniac Metal" in Chem labs... It was not until the early 1920's that Titanium Metal was commercially available.
I did investigate the Cliff Barker rail when I first started and it is of very high quality -but brass is so much easier to work with...
The CuP Alloys website does have some information on soldering Stainless.
http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/brazing-stainless-steel-c44.html (http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/brazing-stainless-steel-c44.html)
regards
ralph
Thank you Ian, Andy and Ralph for providing so much information. Preheating a block and a much larger iron will be my next steps as well as taking up the other hints you have given me.
I am only using stainless steel for the branch line, to use up stock, the bulk of my rail is brass. Living by the sea, I had heard many horror stories about soft soldered brass joint failures. Prior to joining the forum, the manufacturers Johnson Mathey told me that silver soldering brass for use in salt-laden atmospheres was approved for military use. So I had a go - for the first time in nearly half a century! Successfully - at least on two vees. Stupidly, I had not considered this for stainless rail. I will have a go on some short bits of rail.
I still want to master the soft soldering of biggish jobs. The gentleman who built Mike May's track apparently silver soldered the vees and then soft soldered the vees and the closure and wing rails to a brass plate to increase the rigidity of the crossing. The advice you have given me would be even more pertinent for this task. That is some way off - I will just try and master soft soldering vees to start with.
Wish I had joined the forum 12 months ago.
Thanks again.
Roger.
Andy,
Re : Video clips
My webserver has plenty of disc space and at the moment my bandwidth is running at average of 6% load average over a month (bear in mind that my server is already home to in excess of 20 websites and some of those already carry video).
Provided the clips are no more than 5 minutes each (and there are not too many of them) I don't anticipate a problem.........unless every G3 member tries to access them simultaneously!!
They will need to be recorded in a common format such as AVI or MPEG.
Regards,
John.
Hi Roger,
I will be making up some brass V's shortly - and I may well silver solder them this time around.
This has the advantage that you can subsequently soft solder other parts of the turnout together (without the V coming unstuck) either on a brass plate (as I have done before) or with some thin (1-2mm) brass rods spaced to go between the sleepers. John W had a sample of this build method at Alton in December and it looked a neat way to do things. Once painted the rods 'disappear' between the sleepers (and are therefore not as unsightly as a plate) but will still keep things in the correct position.
John had used the jig available from Ken C to 'set' his parts, so if anyone wants a headstart with getting wing rails and V's etc correctly spaced and positioned for 'tacking' them together with rod (or plates) before laying them - then the jig will help. Dave 'The Shop' can advise.
Regards,
Ian T
When I was building the "snowflake wheel" for the NER EE-1 I had to hold together the trident leg whilst I hit it with the torch etc. The method used was to smear CA to the faces of the trident and then sick a spatula (large size lollipop stick) to it. This then held the pieces in position whilst I clamped it firmly in a small vice. The spatula duly burned off and the solder flowed around the joint. If you MUST solder in the expensive jig -then make sure that you have heavily rubbed a 2B pencil over the jig. This will stop the solder from sticking to it. OK -it will use a lot of pencils -but at the end of it you will still have the expensive jig intact....
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic13.jpg)
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic14.jpg)
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic15.jpg)
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic16.jpg)
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic17.jpg)
(http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/neree1pic19.jpg)
regards
ralph
Hi Ian,
Try again. My first post disappeared into the ether. The use of rods looks good. Some of my second hand points have the whole crossing assembly soldered to a brass plate. These are very strong, hence my desire to master the art. I can report success! I borrowed an old iron -seemingly ex-Antiques Roadshow: used a pre-heat block and made use of the other hints. Result - two st.st. vees soldered first time. One swallow etc.etc. Thanks to all who offered help.
About a week ago you suggested I post photos of my simple jigs which use 2 1/2" aluminium flat bar. A workshop move has hampered this but I have posted (with luck) one shot. The jig nearest the camera is for a 1 in 6 diamond crossing. It took about an hour and a quarter to make. Behind it is the sleeper assembly. Both items sit on Trax templates. In between is a straight forward track gauge made from an offcut - about 10 mins work.
I also have another jig - not on the photo. When I lifted second hand track, some rail lengths lost their battens. The jig has three parallel bars with the gaps the width of the rail head. The track is inverted which allows new battens to be tapped down on to the existing track pins whilst alignment is guaranteed. I also use these 'rogue' lengths to start transition curves. The first 12" is clamped straight and the curve is the held/set by temporary wooden guides. Harder to explain than to do.
The kindling at the far end is part of a batch of 500 super-elevation wedges. I wanted nearly a 1000 wedges. Helped by a neighbour, we lost the will to live after two tedious hours and settled for half the required number.
Behind the sleeper assembly, though not relevant, is my simple rolling road. It took only an hour to build using proprietary rollers. It works well and will currently take any British prototype six coupled loco.
Hope this gets through this time .
Regards,
Roger.
Looks like your 'Novice' days are pretty much over then Roger. :)
Some interesting ideas here. Thank you for posting them.
Just out of curiosity - what are you making the sleepers from? They look like a hardwood - I don't suppose you have found a good (e.g. affordable) source of wood for this.
Regards,
Ian
Hi Ian,
Thanks but I am not sure my 'L' plates are off just yet. My knowledge of wood is not great. As most of my track was purchased second hand, I am not using a lot of sleepers. My local carpenter suggested I stick to sawn-treated timber. Experienced folk may scream and say - stick to hardwoods.
I was influenced by the choice of preservative. I contacted Bird Brand ( www.birdbrand.co.uk RK and K Jones) after noticing their website said that Creosote substitutes (creocote etc.) can no longer claim to be a wood preservative - no longer suitable for ground contact. A wonderfully helpful man called Richard at Jones said that the only thing that works is traditional creosote. Now I know my sleepers are not in contact with the ground but it would be nice to have this degree of functionality.
As a registered smallholder, I am classed as a professional user and allowed therefore to purchase creosote. I was bothered about its carcinogenic properties but was advised that some of the substitutes are also now carrying carcinogen warnings. Creosote is carcinogenic primarily via prolonged skin contact.
Given that I can use a high performance preservative, I concluded that treated timber would suffice. Not a lot of help to you I know.
If I could be indulgent and explain that I go to great lengths to constrain the use of creosote to the sleepers. I have a dip tank directly above which is a primary drainage tray which captures all drips. I managed to buy very clean 45 gallon oil drums for £6 each from a local recycler. These act as secondary drainage tanks to increase throughput ( I have 1300 feet of track to re-treat). When dry, the track is transfered to an open-sided shelter for final drying. This shelter has a bunded floor in case there is any final seepage. True, this does not obviate the entire environmental impact but it is seriously minimised. In any case, other solvent-based preservatives are also not without effect.
For all other above-ground timber I am now experimenting with Ecosote ( about £35 for 20 litres) which is water-based and has no health warnings. The one exception to this is the top of baseboards which I coat in a 1:3 mix of PVA in case of failure of the roofing felt. A lot of my baseboards so treated have been exposed all winter and they still repel water.
Sorry to digress and still be of little help. My local carpenter uses a lot of hardwoods -some reclaimed. If you let me know your preferences it will cost nothing to explore his sources.
Regards,
Roger.
Hi Ralph,
It was remiss of me in my previous posts not to acknowledge your work on the snowflake wheel and tips about sacrificial fixings and the 2B pencil. I would not have thought of this approach and can see it being of use to me in the future.
Thanks,
Roger.