I am preparing two sets of RCH 1923 wagon parts which are being sent away for lettering as test samples which (if successful) will form the basis of a new range of pre-painted P.O. wagon bodies as part of the new "Flexikit" range being marketed by Williams Models.
Two of the test samples will be a "Kingsbury" wagon and the other a "Baddesley".
The body parts are supplied pre-painted to the company which will apply the lettering, so I am canvassing opinion on the most appropriate "base" colours.
Kingsbury wagons were green (described in one book as "deep meadow green") and having visited the local Humbrol stockist, I have returned with acrylic No.2.
I would describe it as mid-way between SR malachite and BR mid-Brunswick loco green. Anyone have any thoughts?
The Baddesley "base" colour is black ... sounds simple enough!
Looking at models of black-liveried coal wagons, would a dark charcoal look better than a true black?
John.
Hi John
I would use a halfords aerosol matt or satin black. The other choice would be the Games Workshops "Chaos black". The good thing with the Games Workshop paints is that if you desire to do touch up on a sprayed area the colours do match perfectly from aerosol to brush on. I use the Revell matt 65 for the southern loco and coach green. When varnished it has a nice deep richness to the colour.
Mark
John, looking through the many Private Owner livery books, the three most common body colours seem to have been; black, Red Oxide and Lead Grey. However remember there are 158 BSI standards for 'Red' and grey is well, a 'grey' area. Very few I have come across were a green colour, however 'Chocolate' and at the turn of the century, 'Purple Brown' are sometimes specified.
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Thanks Mark and Ian.
I propose to have four samples made in all.
The other two will be one in grey (possibly Stephenson Clarke) and the other a red wagon,
Those coming into focus are (Thos.) MOY , Manchester Collieries and Bolsover.
Nothing is "set in stone" so comments welcome BUT there must be evidence of the suggested companies having owned RCH 1923 wagons and wagon numbers provided (types available will be 7-plank and 8-plank with both ends fixed and ditto with one tipping/opening end).
Any company which ceased to trade pre-1923 is automatically ruled out, as are liveries which applied only pre-1923 (i.e. where lettering style or body colour changed before delivery of RCH 1923 pattern wagons).
We aim to be completely authentic!
John.
John
The question of colour is a personal problem, no two people ever view a colour as the same thing, picture colours you see depend on the film stock used and processing.
Do what you see as the colour you belive is the best match, it will be correct for some and wrong for others.
Thats life...
John
Try being colour blind.... >:( :( :o :-\ :-\ :-\ :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
The true colours whatever they are i.e "perfect" & definitive when outshopped on vehicles become bleached, weathered and faded when in the sunshine. So what does it matter about what is and is not correct? These models represent prototypes from a black & white shades of grey world prior to colour reproduction for the permanent record. Does anyone trust oil paintings & water colour paintings from bygone days because colour fastness is the debate here?
So how many modellers out there were about seeing these prototypes when they were at their finest?
I think that living memory is now dead & gone for most historical periods of interest. i.e pre grouping.
You give it your best shot John & we will love you for it.
Dave
454
Thanks John & Dave.
I shall, as you suggest, have to make an "educated guess", in the knowledge that nobody will be able to prove me wrong!
I have had suggested (by a 7mm kit produce) the following colours and shall follow these suggestions :
Kingsbury : Humbrol no. 105 matt green.
Baddesley : Plasticote either matt black or black primer.
Stephenson Clarke : Humbrol 106 grey and Humbrol 153 red.
For the fourth test wagon, I have not yet decided but I suppose it should be a red wagon.
Bolsover and Manchester Collieries are possibilities but I am open to suggestions (but MUST be an authentic livery for a 1923 RCH wagon....see my comments in earlier posting).
John.
Hello John & All
Re paint and colours red oxide is not red . In the N.R.M. at York in a display case there is a Peterbrough Coop wagon ( About 15" gauge ) Livery is red oxide but , To me a dark tan or mid to dark brown colour . Also The Manchester Collieries livery is maroon Not red . Both Leeds model co and Slaters have produced this livery in O gauge . Also Slaters have done a Stevie Clark wagon the base colour is not Grey it has a pale green hue . Re the Kingsbury waggon I think Peco have done it in 4mm and possibly 3mm and a bright grass green ought to be about right . Hope this helps , I have a full set of Hudsons on the shelf , Plus evrything else P.O. wagon related I have been able to lay my hands on . When I am at home potocopys are no problem .
John
Thanks John.
The SC wagon is certainly an unusual hue .... a light grey/green seems to be what others have used.
I shall be visiting the local Humbrol stockist later to see what the colours I have been quoted actually look like.
I merely used the term "red" to indicate that the the fourth wagon would not be grey or black,etc.
When the "name" has been chosen, I shall obtain the closest colour available.
I remember the "Kingsbury" Peco Wonderful wagon but my memory was of a deeper shade.....not sure I want a vivid green wagon, so may think again about that one.
Regards,
John.
A trip to the Humbrol stockist didn't get me very far!
The "Kingsbury" green (No.105) which had been suggested was a dark matt green (appeared on the chart and under artificial lighting to be not unlike the colour of Army road transport) and it did not match the colour I had expected...it certainly wasn't "grass" green.
I didn't buy any (I already have No.2 Humbrol green which I mentioned earlier and sounds to be a better match).
The SC colours suggested turned out to be a grey (No.106 having no hint of green) much darker than expected.
The only light greys on offer were very light and without a green tint....I bought a tin of No.40 which turns out to be the colour I use for GER ventilated vans...so at least it will not be wasted.
The suggested SC red colour (153) is not much different to signal red (perhaps a touch softer) and again does not strike me as being correct.
John.
John
You mention the livery of the 'Kingsbury' wagon used by Peco. As one with a interest in PO wagons, I would say beware of relying on the colours used by manufactures and fellow model-makers being acurate; always refer to original material, e.g. many Gloucester makers photos had the livery details included in the picture.
Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate
Yes, Ian.
I am very wary of copying other models....in fact my recollection of the Peco model is different to (Midnight Miller) John's.
Unfortunately, in the case of Kingsbury, the description given is "deep meadow green" ......... anyone know what shade of green is "deep meadow"??!!!!!
Guess it depends on where the meadow happens to be, which direction it is facing and the state of the natural light!
John.
Hello All
Yes I would agree always use first source wher you can . Going back to the 1920's firms mixed ther own paint or bought in from smaller scale supplyers rather than todays P.L.Cs. and matching these will be a challenge as they could vary from batch to batch. I belive Bill Hudson had access to the Chas Roberts order books when he did the P.O. wagon books so they ought to be good . You could always give him a ring at Bill Hudson Transpot Books Matlock and ask him !
John