Carriages Again (LMS this time).

[John Candy]

Last time I asked what coaches you would buy, a few expressed interest in BR Mk.1s but there were no firm commitments and it was known that David White/John Witts and Kingscale are both working on Mk.1s.

It is known that "Custom Carriages" are proposing a couple of LMS "Stanier" (Period 3) gangwayed stock but not much has been heard of the project over the past 18 months.
The Stanier coaches would be fine for principal expresses of the mid to late 1930s but what about secondary LMS services (cross-country and excursion traffic) of the 1930's/40's/50's?
We don't all have a "Duchess", "Royal Scot", etc. and don't want to stand and watch a non-stop train race around in circles all day.

I have in mind the "all steel" LMS stock to D1745 and D1746 built by a variety of "contractors" in the 1926/28 period.
They had simple underframes, with no truss angles and battery boxes were suspended from the floor, made possible by the strength of the all-steel bodies (unlike other carriages of that period which were steel-plated over timber frames).
This open/vestibule stock had twin windows to each seating bay (one a drop-light) and 2+2 seating.

D1745 is an all-third open, D1746 a brake third open.

In addition to their use in ordinary expresses, they were used for excursions and "up-market" commuter services (e.g. Manchester/Buxton).
In BR days they were still running but rarely seen on express services.

These are "flush" sided carriages (a development of the similarly-styled wood-panelled Midland carriages) and ideal for stamped aluminium production.

It would require a batch of half-dozen or so of each to make the project viable.

John.

[454]

We don't all have a "Duchess", "Royal Scot", etc. and don't want to stand and watch a non-stop train race around in circles all day.

I agree about the locos but not wanting to stand & watch a non stop train race around in circles all day, what else can one use passenger coaches for? Showcase models only? At least with goods trucks one can shunt with them. Besides what is better than sitting down all day with a cold beer in the sunshine watching a non stop train race around in circles all day? I thought that was what playing trains is all about

Dave
454
( Owner of a 24 feet diameter circle of track, with one tunnel and one bridge )

[John Candy]

Dave,

You obviously read the "wrong" model railway mags. in your youth!   
My "layout" will have four stations and the branch, local and cross-country trains will be "stoppers" or "semi-fasts".
Except when the G3S "racers" come to visit (and even then the high level line will be reserved for "proper" operation), I will run it along prototypical lines and at prototypical speeds (even though the 20ft curves would permit the TGV type speeds one sees at GTGs)!

Regards,
John.

[cabbage]

As I am probably going to be the only owner builder of a Diesel and Electrics "drag strip" with a half mile (scale) long straight -I am interested... I have bought the plans for the LMS carriages (coach and brake third) to be pulled by my assortment of locos. I would only need two carriages and brake. I have studying the plans and going "Ummm...." quite a lot. Yes I like them, but I don't like the method of construction -which I find to be too flimsy for my taste.

I would weld and silver solder the chassis parts rather than use BA nuts and bolts, (but that's probably just me?)

regards

ralph

[454]

Ralph,
BA nuts & bolts sounds good to me, any silver soldering & welding with me always seems to create more of an artistic sculpture consisting of piles of "Almond Rock" far removed from what the original intent might have been. Least of all an LMS coach. BTW where did you get the plans from?


John,
In my youth I used to escort my grandpa to Headingley to watch our beloved Yorkshire cricket taking the train from Rotherham to Leeds which involved travelling by train. The test matches were the best as it could involve five return trips. The return journey I looked forward to very much as my grandpa liked to get off the train at "Swinton Town" & catch the single decker Mexboro & Swinton trolley back to his home. Now the return Leeds to Swinton Town on the Midland main line was a completely different experience when compared to the Rotherham to Leeds. That could be Jubilee hauled & usually a nicely turned out one at that, with ex LMS (BR) maroon coaches - happy days. But the return journey was a contrast it was "The Stopper" some called it the mail train it was the train to avoid!
It always consisted of an asthmatic wheezing pathetic loco with parcels vans, newspaper vans, full brakes with a couple of slam door LMS suburbans with no toilet. Yes it did stop at every station. In those days pre Beeching non of them had been closed. Even with my grandpa I could have walked him faster home. But, that was the train of choice, why? You may ask. Because it prolonged the railway experience & took longer to arrive home to mundanity. Read the wrong books & mags? No. Well I could not afford them    I just lived the experience. Those days are gone but my memories remain & re-created on my modest 24 feet diameter circle with one tunnel, one bridge & no stations 

Happy days

Dave
454

[MikeWilliams]

Well, "TGV type speeds one sees at GTGs" and similar comments from another member are a bit unfair.  Yes, live steamers can run away with you, and some owners of (non-G3) electric exhibition layouts also seem to run them at these speeds.  But, the aim always is surely to run them at scale speeds and some manage to do so very well indeed.

As I've said before, a treat for me a couple of years ago was squatting down at the end of Alan Marsden's girder bridge, tea mug in hand, just a couple of inches from the track, as a Mike Pavie pacific and six coaches came past at about 30mph.  You could hear the exhaust beats, see the track moving up and down, feel the heat from the firebox and the weight of the train, followed by clickerty click, ... clickerty click, ... clickerty click, ... fading into the distance.  How else can you experience that except Gauge 3 live steam?

Getting back to the topic, for suburban stock suitable for the 1920s and 1930s on the LMS there was a great deal of pre-Grouping still in use.  It doesn't have to be ex-LNWR (but could be!), but ex-Midland or L&Y?  That might widen the appeal too.

Mike

[Andy B]

for suburban stock suitable for the 1920s and 1930s on the LMS there was a great deal of pre-Grouping still in use.  It doesn't have to be ex-LNWR (but could be!), but ex-Midland or L&Y?  That might widen the appeal too.

Mike - I agree, but by inference from John's 'all steel bodies' the LMS carriages have the advantage of simplicity.
Most pre-grouping stock was panelled- very pretty, but not an easy/ low cost style to reproduce in model form. So not ideal for anyone who is not a pre-grouping 'specialist' or a dedicated carriage modeller.
So potentially the appeal is narrowed as the price increases and ease/speed of building decreases
Andy

[MikeWilliams]

Fair point Andy (and John).  I guess that also cuts out the early LMS panelled stock.

Mike

[cabbage]

Dave,

I got the plans from "Locomotive Design". I also have a 4-6-4 tank loco plus their PO wagon and Toad plans. At some point when everything is ready I will have to have a assembly line for wagons going. They also do some points designs that look interesting (for me!)

regards

ralph

PS you are welcome to examine my stash of plans and books -but be warned that a reciprocal arrangement might be required. "Peaky Tim" has my address and telephone number -but e-mail is preferred. tea, coffee and cake are always ready!!!

[hornbeam]

I do need to build my coaching stock up but hopefully GRS will produce the GWR stock they have mentioned. However I like the LMS stock. What would the construction of them be, appreciate its early days John.

[John Candy]

Simon,

I am just taking "soundings" to establish demand at present but I am thinking of a dual layer skin for the sides.
Inner with the droplights stamped out and outer with the full size window apertures.
Inner skin of aluminium and outer either of brass (etched with door outlines) or aluminium.
Ends probably cast either in resin or whitemetal.
Floor and solebars of pressed aluminium (the solebars on some of these carriages were "flat" on outer surface with the flanges facing inwards and some were "conventional" with flanges facing outwards....depends upon which contractor built a particular Lot).
The roof could be pressed aluminium (either separate from or combined with the outer side layers).

Assembly would have to be screwed and glued (Araldite/epoxy) although I have some Carrs "aluminium solder" which I have never tried!

This should produce a strong but lightweight carriage, along the lines of the old BSL/Phoenix and Westdale kits in smaller scales.

As I said, early days and open to advice/suggestions.

If there is sufficient interest, I propose asking Paul Industrial to provide a quote for the aluminium stamping/pressing.

Regards,
John.

[Traininvain]

I can supply brass patterns for:

- LMS buffer housing
- torpedo vent
- dynamo and bracket

Better still, Walsall Model Industries or Slaters can supply either w/metal or brass castings based on the above, plus castings for most of the other parts (door handles, hinges, battery boxes, shell vents, door vent bonnets, guard lookout duckets for brake ends, etc etc).

Custom Carriages should be able to supply etched brass parts to make the bogies.

Alternatively Peter Korzilius (see G1MRA Journal) can supply laser cut steel (or brass) bogie frames and bolsters, depending on the size of an order.

In fact, aside from the underframes and the bodies, high quality components to superdetail an LMS vestibule or non-corridor carriage now exist in G3 and are available to purchase.

Ian

[John Candy]

Ian,

Thanks, that info is a great help and there are far more of the detailing bits available than I had expected, which will make the task simpler.
Assuming there are sufficient "takers", I may ask Paul Industrial to quote to supply the bodies/underframes ready-assembled and pre-drilled to take the detailing.

I do need 6+ orders for each type before it becomes worthwhile for Paul to produce the tooling.
I would want two D1745 TO and one D1746 BTO.

Where are all you LMS fans?

John.

[MikeWilliams]

John,

I doubt whether diagram numbers mean anything to most people, including me, so do you know of any photos you could provide a link to?

Mike

[John Candy]

Mike,

Only photos I have are in books and subject to copyright.
I am attaching a couple of photos of models I built from BSL kits in the 1970s and sold along with all my other 4mm stuff about 6 years ago.

John.