Author Topic: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T  (Read 14206 times)

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Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2015, 07:23:13 AM »
While waiting to receive an ordered copy of "An Illustrated Review of Midland Locomotives Vol.3" (which covers all MR tank classes), I completed the chassis, including making wheel balance weights from plastic card and priming with red oxide.

I already knew (before the book arrived) that the "Johnson 1F" designation covered several classes/variations of 0-6-0T but had not expected the diversity disclosed by the book!

It turns out that the "1377" class (the type represented by the kit) was not just one of the classes covered by the generic term "1F" but that there were several different diagrams within the "1377" class. Add to that the variations in cabs (not just a choice of "open" or "full cab" but five identified variations in full cab design), variations in boilers, brakes, balance weights, bunker details, etc. and the permutations become mind-boggling.

I selected a particular loco on which to base my model .... No.1670 as depicted in early LMS days.
The loco has vacuum ejector, boiler side clacks/injectors, an enclosed 1912-fitted cab and the original "A" class round-topped boiler with Salter valves.

Having thought I had it all "sussed", I noticed that the cab roof of this loco. (and one other photo., of No. 1674) has the raised cab roof ventilators of the type fitted to the LMS standard 3F "Jinty" (as also fitted to the MR 3F 0-6-0T when re-boilered with Belpaire boilers and fitted with new cabs). The remainder of the many photos of both "1377" and other 1F classes with full cabs show either a sliding (tranverse) vent cover or none. There is no mention of cab ventilators in the text of the book (nor is it commented upon in captions to the photos.)  so  I am assuming this modification must have been a late MR (or possibly LMS) modification fitted to very few locos.

Anyone have any further info. on the topic?

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline Andy B

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2015, 08:50:44 AM »
John,
For that degree of detail you might find Midland Railway locomotives. Volume 3 by Stephen Summerson useful. Pub Irwell press.
Summerson's books are based on research into the MR's operating minutes, etc, rather than putting text around a collection of photos as per the 'Illustrated review..." series (which is not meant to denigrate the Essery / Jenkinson books in any way - the two sets of books being quite complementary and an excellent resource for modellers).

Andy

Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2015, 09:59:18 AM »
Thanks Andy.

I have done a quick Google but no copies appear to be available (no longer listed by Irwell and last secondhand copy, now sold, was listed on Ebay at 31.95GBP).

I am pretty sure I have most of the information I now need.
The only remaining "niggles" are the shape of the tank filler caps and the number of tank stays (tank top to boiler).
The only Derby drawing of an 0-6-0T in the book I have is of a 3F,as built, and it shows oval fillers (as fitted to the LMS Standard 3F).
The "condensing" 3Fs have smaller, circular, fillers.
The small scale (ex-magazine, I presume) drawing of a 1F (by Whitehead) shows circular fillers on both condensing and non-condensing locos.
The only tank-top photos I have been able to find of 1Fs are of Belpaire rebuilds and they show oval fillers.
The Derby drawings of Johnson 1P 0-4-4 tanks show oval (except for condensing locos which have smaller, circular fillers).
The GRS kit contains large, circular, fillers.

I am (unless I discover anything to contrary) proposing to fit oval fillers (same as the replacements I cast for the "Jinty" kit) see photo.

Regarding the tank stays, the kit provides two (one for each tank) of the type fitted to the Belpaire conversions.
So far as I can make out from the sketch drawings (and photos of locos. with original boilers) two, very small/stubby, brackets were fitted each side between tanks and boiler.

Regards,
John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline AllWight

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2015, 10:26:51 AM »
I know its the wrong scale but you might be wise to contact London Road Models whose main loco kits basis are of the LMS. They may be a fountain of invaluable information for those obscure details that you are not aware of.

Mark

Offline Andy B

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2015, 11:04:43 AM »
Regarding the tank stays, the kit provides two (one for each tank) of the type fitted to the Belpaire conversions.
So far as I can make out from the sketch drawings (and photos of locos. with original boilers) two, very small/stubby, brackets were fitted each side between tanks and boiler.

The original GA (drg 78/1055) shows 2 tank brackets on the side view (they are not shown on the top view, nor are the tank fillers).
One is approx 3" behind the dome centre line, the other approx 15" behind the centre axle centre line.
I imagine that the cab front sheet provided a stay at the rear, but I can't see anything on the GA.

Andy

Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2015, 06:25:39 PM »
Not sure I can take many more days like this!

The chassis ran nicely in both directions on the rolling road BUT as soon as I applied friction to the wheels (to simulate a load) the gears started to "jump" (i.e. the worm started riding up over the gear wheel teeth)!
The motor shaft could be seen to visibly flex as the worm jumped.
Even less than a minute of running had chewed shards off the phosphor bronze wheel.

I removed the motor, stripped the primary gear train and dressed the teeth with a diamond needle file.
After re-assembly there was some improvement in that it only now jumped when running in reverse.
After marking the point on the gear where the teeth were causing problems, I again stripped the box and dressed the wheel again.
This time I also moved the worm on its shaft to see whether that would help....it didn't make any difference..
After spending an hour searching  HPC and Muffetts websites, trying to fathom out whether they had gears which would fit as direct replacements into the GRS gearbox, I eventually gave up in total bewilderment at all the options on offer!

About 4 p.m., after having been struggling with it since 9.am., I decided to give it one last try.....if it failed the whole shebang would go back in cupboard (I even told Carol I was giving up model trains and would dump the lot)!

As supplied, the worm engages the primary gear wheel a little off-centre, so that along one edge of the wheel the teeth were still undamaged.
The primary and final drive gear wheels are soldered to a shaft, so I decided to remove the primary wheel and reverse it on the shaft, so the "better" sides of the teeth were closest to the worm.

Thankfully it worked and it now runs smoothly in both directions. How long the gear with damaged teeth will last is another matter...I need to have a permanent solution worked out but the main problem is that, with this kit, the gearbox is supplied fitted to the wheelset which itself is quartered and assembled, the wheels being cast iron and not the usual Slaters (they are force-fitted on the axles and not screwed on).

That's all for now.......I have a (literal) pain in the neck from leaning over the bench all day.

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline AllWight

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2015, 09:32:53 AM »
Sounds like the spindle itself is not running concentric to the motor and therefore that is why the gear wheels could be jumping in one direction.

Mark

Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2015, 01:34:35 PM »
If I can summon up the enthusiasm, I may remove the motor, again, and test with my DTI.

I did think the gear wheel might not have been running true but a rough check showed it to be pretty near true (not with the DTI ... after several hours I was pretty fed up and couldn't be bothered to centre the gear shaft in the lathe chuck) but again, I may check properly.

I will need a new gear wheel cut, which is not something I am competent to do!

The worm is mounted on the motor shaft by two grub screws....one of which does absolutely nothing!
They are both stub/flat ended (not at all pointed so they bite into the shaft) and only one engages in a "flat" the motor spindle.

If it were not for the cast wheels needing to be forced off their axles (and then needing to be quartered accurately upon re-assembly), I would simply substitute another motor/gearbox (possibly the superior type from Slater's).

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline AllWight

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2015, 02:20:42 PM »
It may be easier to bite the bullet and do just that John. Press the wheels off and replace with the new slaters helical motor/gearbox. All the hours of agravation i would say cut your losses now and do it.

Mark

Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2015, 03:30:44 PM »
Mark,

On thinking about it, that would be easier were it not that the axles and bearings are 10mm dia.
I would have to replace the wheels and bearings and, possibly, have to modify the frames.

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline AllWight

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2015, 09:00:34 AM »
Ah buggar

Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2015, 10:16:04 AM »
Precisely!!

Worse still, I just remembered that the coupling rods have extra large bores to fit the oversized bearings/pins fitted to these wheels (much larger than the Slaters crankpins).

I think this chassis is strong enough to be used for a "proper" live steamer (not a GRS "wiggly" geared motor type of steam engine)!

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline AllWight

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2015, 12:20:48 PM »
I know a way to cure the issue John. Model Southern instead that would improve it

Sorry i cannot be more helpful

Mark

 ;D

Offline John Candy

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2015, 01:17:10 PM »
If there had been kits for the 2-HAL, 2-BIL, 4-SUB, 4-EPB, 4-COR, "700", M7, Q1, T9, N, LN and a few more, I would have "been in clover".

Add some District G/Q and R stock and I could have relived my memories of the 1950's, watching the trains on the flyover by Durnsford Road power station, passing under Gap Road bridge, and alongside Alexandra Road into Wimbledon Station!

Alas, I am stuck with the LMS, LNER and (ugh!) the GWR.
I have to admit that during the 1970's, I did have a mad plan to build the entire I.O.W. system (i.e. before the closure of Freshwater and Bembridge) in 2mm scale!!

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline AllWight

Re: GRS kit Midland Johnson 1F 0-6-0T
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2015, 01:38:22 PM »
Well the IOW system would have been impressive in 2mm. I am currently building a 00 layout of Merstone with hand built track. I am also to retire my other layout from the exhibition circuit which is Bembridge at the end of this year.

Mark