Author Topic: HST Power Car  (Read 6030 times)

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Offline IanT

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2014, 10:51:17 AM »
But - it is a great pity this bloke couldn't be bothered to get it right (or possibly just compromised the correct scale to fit the available etching machine and/or material size!).

Never mind - I'm sure someone can/will do it better (and cheaper)!

IanT
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.

Offline MikeWilliams

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2014, 11:28:07 AM »
Quite so Ian.

I suspect Dave Lowery was commissioned to make the model a long time ago.  He probably didn't know there was a Gauge 3 Society and I'm sure this pre-dated Slaters wheels and that sort of thing.

He started in 4mm and then moved into 7mm, so our scale will have been all new to him!

Mike

Doddy

  • Guest
Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2014, 11:50:20 AM »
I did not NOT join this forum for yet another god damned pi**sing match over scale variations! I am here to try and learn from constructive minded people. I am new to this scale and "I do not know what I do not know!"

All the bitching I get is "I run G3 scale, but I also run it with my 2.5"G steam locos"

Well! Hey come on buddy! Where is the consistency of scale here? - Oh yes it's the track gauge of 2.5" WOW!

OK - I GET THE MESSAGE LOUD AND CLEAR . . .    G3 = 13.5mm/foot!

But just remember, Dave designed the HST Power Car for Brush Traction as a display model for their boardroom NOT for G3 modellers to run in their garden.

And as for cost, Lithography printing and etching from commercial lithography printers is a damn site more expensive than regular brass etching processes.

Offline IanT

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2014, 03:57:11 PM »
I wasn't trying to have a go at you Doddy - so please accept my apologies if I caused any offence.

But people do get confused over this issue of Gauge & Scale and (especially) on this Forum I think it's right to be clear on the differences. It's not a Gauge '3' thing - it's simply about accuracy in scale. I own older models that are not to built to current scale standards (some are 1/2" for instance) but if I'm going to build something starting from scratch, then I'd at least try to build it to the correct scale. It wouldn't really make sense not to.
 
As for Dave, I assume he was paid to build an accurate "scale" model of the original prototype for Brush Traction. So, if he built it to 13mm/ft (to run on 2.5" track) then unless the original loco ran on a track of gauge 4ft 10.6" - then, for whatever reason quite frankly (as a professional model maker) he fudged it.

Regards,

IanT
 
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.

Doddy

  • Guest
Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2014, 05:03:54 PM »
I am more than happy to accept your apology Ian, but please get over the way Dave built the loco, the Power Car for Brush Traction was a boardroom trinket, an unpowered display model designed and built to sit, and look pretty on 2.5" track, and not to be run by, or with G3 aficionados in mind.

I would take a guess that anybody who has been asked to build a 2.5"G loco and looks at the 2.5"G website will read that their models are built to 13mm/foot and correspondingly do the same and not give G3 a second thought. We can speculate until the cows come home on that one.

Dave will likely use his remaining etches for other railway companies boardroom display models once the real HST trains start to be withdrawn.

As for the Slaters wheels Mike; Dave used Slaters 2.5"G spoked wheels and covered them with his own nickel silver etches to represent the brake disks mounted on the real power car. So of all the things on this model it is likely that the wheels that are the only things to scale for G3.

As for building in the correct scale of 13.5mm/foot, I totally agree with you, which is the other principle reason I did not buy the existing 2.5"G lithoplates from Dave.

They would not have sat well against my G3 Peak and I was told in no uncertain terms that any development of a 2.5"G loco at 13mm/foot would not be accepted by G3 members who require 13.5mm/foot. And IF I had built another pair of locos they would not sit together as one set would have been 2.5"G and the other at G3 scale - another reason not to purchase the 2,5"G version. As all these issues would also be present for any potential development of MKIII coaches to go with the power cars.

Scalewise, the difference is a 2.5"G power car length of 759mm against a G3 scale power car length of 788.4mm and 5mm narrower than  the G3 version. I took that factor onboard when I was told about it by Mike Williams and others. I myself cringed at the idea of having to build two entire sets of castings for the two scales even with such a minute difference. Another reason for me not going with the 2.5"G lithographic plates.

As for the issue of scale and gauge on this forum:- It does state . . .  Gauge 3 and 2.5 inch gauge

SO, in my mind you do raise a very valid point in that the misinterpretation of the two build scales is not prevalent in material related to G3 matters presented to the unknowing.

On The National 2 1/2" Association website homepage it clearly states that "Initially, the scale used for standard gauge locomotives was half inch, but this was changed to 17/32-ins. (about 13mm) very early on"

On THE GAUGE '3' SOCIETY website homepage - nothing!




Offline IanT

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2014, 05:33:08 PM »
I'm sorry Doddy,

I'm really not trying to get into point scoring here but I'm afraid your interpretation/understanding of 2.5" gauge is incorrect. I've been a member of both the Gauge '3' Society and the National 2.5" Gauge Association for some years and your statement about 13mm/ft for 2.5" gauge is just simply wrong - I'm sorry but it is.

If you convert 17/32nds to metric, you will find that it comes to 13.49375 mm. That seems pretty near to 13.5 mm to me.

Before you leap all over me, please remember that others (perhaps unfamiliar with the differences between Scale & Gauge) read these posts (and statements in them) on what is a Public Forum and any incorrect information published on it can be quite confusing for them.

Regards,

IanT
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.

Offline 454

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2014, 05:37:30 PM »
Doddy,

Gauge 3

Elegant, reasonably scale looking, recognisable prototypes, 64mm track with plastic or wooded sleepers & chairs of whitemetal or soldered staples & "rail like" section in bullhead or flat bottom which is quite reasonably lifelike.

2.5" gauge

Harks back to the days when Curly Lawrence alias LBSC popularised 2.5inch gauge to the masses for use in suburban gardens rather than aristocratic large country house estates. His legacy is valuable as a prolific designer & builder of excellent working miniature steam locomotives has often been unreasonably criticised for making them chunky & slightly out of scale. Reason being he favoured ride behind leg dangling & firing & driving one's own loco as the ultimate challenge. To this extent the tracks around the country tend to be Model Engineer Society tracks & raised too. With either heavy gauge rail section multi gauge 3.5 & 5 inch gauges shared with the 2.5. If not rail section heavy gauge then steel trip with welded or bolted spacers separating the rails or "runners".

You see Doody we are talking about 3 different things here.

1) Gauge 3 & how pretty it is, running through scenery with a trailing consist. Either under control or mostly, frighteningly out of control.

2) 2.5" gauge & how robust, heavy engineered so you can get your fingers into the cabs with hot metal wanting to burn your fingers while you shovel coal like crazy trying to keep up steam belting along at what seems warp speed & trying at the same time to avoid ramming the fellow in front whose poor loco has lost fire & pressure & stopped.

3) An arbitary scaled model to fit in a glass case in the boardroom.

Doddy I love em all. I don't care. Am a member of G3S & N2.5inch assoc. Also love to make & have fun models that make purists cringe.

If a pretty looking gauge 3 loco is run on a ME society track, due to unpopularity of 2.5" the rail head tends to be a bit corroded or rusty, then there is a risk that the model could derail & be damaged. This is due to the rusty rail & a nice polished rail due to the 3.5 & 5 being more popular. Some may think I am talking rubbish but I tell you this I will never put my Brit on a ME track for that reason alone.

Please chill & do your own thing like the rest of us do it is after all supposed to be fun we will gladly give you all the support & encouragement you need.

Come along to Ted's on Sunday & see how much fun we really do have.

Cheers
Dave

Doddy

  • Guest
Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2014, 05:46:44 PM »
I'm sorry Doddy,

I'm really not trying to get into point scoring here but I'm afraid your interpretation/understanding of 2.5" gauge is incorrect. I've been a member of both the Gauge '3' Society and the National 2.5" Gauge Association for some years and your statement about 13mm/ft for 2.5" gauge is just simply wrong - I'm sorry but it is.

If you convert 17/32nds to metric, you will find that it comes to 13.49375 mm. That seems pretty near to 13.5 mm to me.

Before you leap all over me, please remember that others (perhaps unfamiliar with the differences between Scale & Gauge) read these posts (and statements in them) on what is a Public Forum and any incorrect information published on it can be quite confusing for them.

Regards,

IanT


HEY! READ THE WEBSITE AND SEE FOR YOURSELF:-

http://www.n25ga.org.uk/

Second paragraph . . .

Why tell me to chill out when you don't read or investigate things!

Written in their words, you clubs words. If is wrong then tell them to get their website changed!

Offline 454

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2014, 06:11:28 PM »
The term used by N2.5gA on their website is "about 13mm" no more precise than that, certainly last time I checked.

Dave
454


Offline MikeWilliams

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2014, 06:44:27 PM »
I think we've all understood the message.  Can we cool the language a little please.

Mike

Offline Baggo

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2014, 07:03:37 PM »
I've asked Gerald to change the 'about 13mm' to 13.5mm. I think it's something that got carried over from the old website. My apologies as it has obviously caused confusion.

John
Member of North West Leicestershire SME
Secretary National 2½" Gauge Association

Offline 454

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2014, 07:41:21 PM »
Thanks John for coming to the rescue,  suspect could hear the cavalry galloping over the horizon, I think that should be the end of the matter & we can get down to talking about HST's once more.

Cheers
Dave
454

Offline John Candy

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2014, 08:30:39 AM »
Just to re-state the raison d'etre of this forum : It is for anyone with an interest in modelling/model engineering in Gauge 3 or 2.5 inch gauge to seek information and exchange ideas.

Whereas the majority of members are likely to follow a SCALE of 13.5mm to one Foot, there will be those whose interests may result in variations in scale.
Older 2.5 inch gauge models (including "vintage" products from the likes of Bassett-Lowke, Bing, etc.) are brought to G3 get-togethers, as well as more recently-built models to the designs of LBSC (Curly Lawrence....not the railway) and Henry Greenly.
Many of these 2.5 gauge models are not strictly to the scale quoted for Gauge 3 (i.e. 13.5 mm to one Foot) but none the less are welcomed and run without problems (so long as they are not so overscale as to demolish lineside items such as signals, etc.).

This forum was originally set up just for followers of "Gauge 3" but in recognition of a number of factors (which included the potential value of input from members of the National 2.5 Gauge Assocn. and the fact that several followers of our scale/gauge are members of both The Gauge 3 Society and N2.5GA)
the scope was widened to include all with 2.5 inch gauge interests.

The decision has been of benefit to Gauge 3 followers, since there has been valuable input from experienced N2.5GA members who are not members of The Gauge 3 Society.

The minor differences in interpretation of "scale" have been highlighted in this thread but in reality (so long as these are understood) have not been detrimental to harmonious interaction at Gauge 3 events where models varying from the currently accepted standards have been run together.

The last thing any of us want, is to deter any member from posting in this forum, simply because their model is not 100% to the current scale being quoted as "the standard" (after all, the standards have altered over the years.... even the Gauge 3 Society wheel profile standards and buffer height/spacing have been changed within the past couple of years).


John Candy
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline MikeWilliams

Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2014, 08:48:07 PM »
Doddy,

Is there any progress you can tell us about yet?

Mike

Doddy

  • Guest
Re: HST Power Car
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2014, 06:47:43 PM »
For a variety of reasons the HST project is not going any further.

However, several other opportunities have arisen to licence and produce several motorised models for G3 which are currently in discussion for construction and testing of the first prototypes over the next few months.