Author Topic: Boiler testing  (Read 1583 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jamiepage

Boiler testing
« on: February 23, 2015, 10:02:49 AM »
As someone interested in the future of our hobby of live steam scenic railways, can anyone definitively answer the following questions, please?
1. Do the G3S require water glasses to be capable of being blown down as part of their test schedule for boilers?
2. Are electronic water gauges (red/green lights) an acceptable alternative to glasses? Or try-cocks?
3.What difference between a boiler (smaller than 10 bar litre) in a model boat as opposed to  in a loco on a scenic railway, led MELG to exempt the one but not the other from the ability to blow down in their own test schedules? (Green book 11.7.c)
Thank you
Jamie

Offline John Candy

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2015, 10:13:16 AM »
I would also like clarification.

This matter of blow down valves  has raised its head only yesterday.

If blow down valves were required all along (Ian T stated that the regs. have not been altered) then does that mean all certificates issued to locos without such fitments were technically invalid, with consequential questions as to validity of insurance coverage?

If certificates were/are invalid, Underwriters could repudiate liability for a claim.

There must be a lot of locos out there without such fitments (especially the GRS live steam offerings) and it may not be possible to modify them.

Does this mean they will be refused a boiler certificate?

Regards,
John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline cabbage

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 11:33:43 AM »
Q1: I would say that any new boiler built after the 2015 AGM when this was announced would require them.
Q2: I would say NO. Electronic devices of the red/green LED type simply tell you two things YES there is water in the boiler NO there is no water in the boiler and give no indication of true volume remaining.
Q3: I would say it would be the Blast Impact Radius. Should a boat boiler explode the vessel sinks and the vessel is probably outside the 10N cm3 impact value for debris.

Any steam locomotive running on my tracks will have a valid Southern Fed or NAMES boiler certificate.

There will be NO EXCEPTIONS.
[/color]

I run scenic locos Mr Page -the fact that you do not like the regulations is something that you will just have to deal with. I have Methanol and Mirbane (Amyl Nitrate) to run my diesel locos with. The former is a toxic fuel and latter is a shock sensitive explosive liquid.  I have the documentation and correct systems for storage.

The Rules of the Society are quite specific for Get Togethers.

Quote:"Drivers of steam locomotives must produce a valid boiler certificate to the Host prior to any attempt to steam their engines."[/u]

Thus if you wish to run a SCENIC or OTHERWISE loco at a GTG -you need to produce a boiler certificate. If you wish to build and run your own locos on your own track ALONE without a boiler certificate -then in my opinion you may do so. Bring it anywhere else other than as a static exhibit and steam it -then the HOST has every right, (in my books), to throw you out.

What is a more pressing area of thought and regulation in my view is the fact that the Society has no guidelines pertaining to Battery or Internal combustion locos. A case in point would be our chief legalist who thought it was a great idea to "refresh" a battery pack by connecting it to the 450AH of a cranking battery or to stick NiMH cells together with glue...

regards

ralph


Offline jamiepage

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 11:54:54 AM »
I would  be grateful if anyone could definitively answer the questions please?
Thank you
Jamie

Offline John Candy

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2015, 12:24:54 PM »
Quote
A case in point would be our chief legalist who thought it was a great idea to "refresh" a battery pack by connecting it to the 450AH of a cranking battery or to stick NiMH cells together with glue...

Ralph,

I presume you are referring to me!

No, I did not suggest it to be a good idea to to connect to a car battery : I was advised by STRIKALITE who supplied the NiMH battery packs to revive them by momentarily (not more than a few seconds) connecting them to a car battery (these are normally around 70 to 90 Ah not 450Ah... even my car with a 6.75L V8 engine requires only a 70Ah battery).

Since cell packs are supplied shrink wrapped , I fail to see how sticking such shrink-wrapped packs together can further inhibit any cooling effect which would in any event be be stifled, were a greater number of cells to be enclosed in a single shrink wrapping. In any event, my cell packs do not get more than slightly warm, even when charged in an enclosed space (e.g. my saddle tanks).

For one who, in the past, has criticised and been opposed to legal measures inteended to protect members, you suddenly seem very anxious to introduce even more restrictions!

Regards,
John.

P.S. Sorry Jamie, your thread seems to have been hi-jacked ....... what we need is an answer to your initial question from those responsible for issuing boiler certificates......and a sight of the G3S insurance policy.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline cabbage

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2015, 12:37:14 PM »
John,
I have protested against LEGALISTIC not LEGAL rulings -the two are as you know quite different.

As to Mr Pages enquiries -would you accept the opinion of a Doctorate qualified Design Engineer?

Yours Respectfully

Ralph Brades B.Ed B.Sc M.Sc Member of the Institute of Analysts and Programmers. Ph.D

Offline John Candy

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2015, 12:48:33 PM »
Ralph,

For the record, I did not actually follow the advice of Strikalite....these were unused cell packs which I had left for 6 months without re-charging!
I didn't much fancy the idea of trying it any more than you would recommend it!
Instead, I placed the cell pack in the airing cupboard and that revived them enough to enable the "smart charger" to take up the charging process.

Jamie's question is very much a legal issue ... we need to know what is required for a boiler certificate to be valid, if challenged by insurers seeking to deny cover in the event of a claim.

Regards,
John.

P.S. Your opinions are always welcome and valued.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline Andy B

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2015, 01:01:03 PM »
Gentlemen,

Can we please keep things factual and non-personal.

Prompted by Jamie's questions, I have looked carefully through the 2012 code and the first 2 questions are areas that are not explicitly defined.
It is not a case of not liking the regulations, it is a case of not being able to follow them (without interpretation) when they do not adequately cover the breadth of the subject.
The third question is one of understanding the rationale.

I, too, could give my opinions based on the processes used to develop safety cases for the 'real railway'. Similarly, we have within our membership someone who deals with nuclear safety issues.
But the definitive answer can only come in a formal publication by the G3S committee (or a working group appointed by them).  I would be happy to support a request to the committee to do this.
(I'd also be happy to participate in a working group if one were to be set up).
Jamie - I'm afraid you won't get a definitive answer through this forum, as the necessary people do not participate.

Regarding the 3rd question, I can only suggest you raise that to MELG directly.

John - whilst I agree that answers are needed, I suggest this thread is terminated It cannot actually make any real progress, just more ventings of frustration.....

Andy

Offline John Candy

Re: Boiler testing
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2015, 01:16:11 PM »
Andy,

Thank you for your analysis of the situation.
I have followed your recommendation and have locked this thread.

If anyone has information they consider of value, please send message to admin@g3forum.org.uk with a copy to moderator@g3forum.org.uk and, after reviewing the content, it may be added to the thread, if considered appropriate.

Regards,
John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.