The Tale of the GWR Railcar .... 2006 to 2015 (or perhaps 2016).

[Doddy]

DAPOL have recently released a model of the GWR Railcar and had this to say on the air horns.
"When these railcars were originally delivered in February 1936 they did not have any horns,, there is a picture in the book 'Great Western Diesel Railcars' of number 12 in August 1936 fitted with side covers to the bogies and no horns visible, which is the condition we modeled number 11 on with fitted bogie covers, so no horns are supplied or fitted with this model. There is a picture in the same book of number 11 in April 1938 with air horns fitted to the side cab windows, but the bogie covers have now been removed.
Later two larger horns were fitted in front of the radiator, all other models have these two horns fitted.
I hope the above clarifies the position.
Kind Regards, Richard "
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64529-dapol-streamlined-railcar/page-6#entry2304087
https://digest.dapol.co.uk/filedata/fetch?id=487&d=1474979498

[John Candy]

Thanks Bob, I had not found that reference previously.
Although no horns were visible, they must have been fitted with some kind of warning device or they would not have been allowed to operate (and there are photos of them being run without the visible horns).
Interestingly, the appendix to the 1936 GWR Rule Book states, "Warning of the approach of Car. These cars are fitted with a whistle at each end, operated from the engine exhaust, also an electric horn for use when stationary or moving slowly, ..........".

Looking at the ex-works photos and the photo link I gave in previous message (and other similar photos.) I am wondering whether the "gadget" attached to the right hand bracket supporting the oil cooler is in fact the exhaust-powered whistle.

Regards,
John.

[Doddy]

Dear John,

We need some information to narrow this down. What number Railcar are you building?

From the postings you have already made with reference to G.R.C.W.s differences in seating arrangements I assume this to be in the range 5 to 7. http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,1661.msg14450.html#msg14450

Numbers 5 to 7:

Assuming that I am correct with my assumption, the batch of Railcar underframes numbered from 5 to 7 were built at the same time with the same underframe chassis as earlier Railcars 2 to 4.  This where G.R.C.W. instigated body changes and introduced sliding doors on railcars 5 to 7 to replace the swinging opening doors, deeper passenger windows were also introduced.

Numbers 8 to 17:

In February 1935 an order for ten more railcars was made to the same basic plan with 70 seat bodies (10 to 12 had 63 seats and a lavatory) these were introduced to traffic in 1936.

From the experience of running the railcars over the revious 12 months a number of modifications were introduced including oil coolers fitted at the front and rear under the buffers to combat the high oil temperatures sustained under continuous high speed running.

The previous seven railcars (1 to 7) were subsequently fitted with these radiator modifications.

Looking at Number 4 in Swindons Steam museum, it clearly has an oil cooling radiator, but the two inner vertical supports are not as heavy duty as other railcars like No.8 and onwards which are supporting either a single or dual pair of cast GWR air horns.

Perhaps a field visit to see number 4 would shed some light on the location of underframe mounted exhaust powered whistles or air horns? But even here, the oil cooled radiator only appears at one end of the railcar. Although looking closely, you can see four circles in the lower nose below buffer height which have what looks like two different sized grills which could have the GWR pair of cast air horns mounted behind them.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/GWR_railcar_at_York%2C_Aug_17.jpg/1280px-GWR_railcar_at_York%2C_Aug_17.jpg

Either way 1936 seems to be the cut-off date for the installation of GWR air horns on earlier railcars, which could only be done with heavy duty oil cooling radiator mountings.

[John Candy]

Bob,

I am modelling No.8 which was the first of the batch with a diifferent gearbox/drive arrangement from Nos. 2 to 7 (as you correctly said, 5,6 and 7 have same drive arrangement as 2 to 4 but 5 to 7 had GRCW bodywork and not Hardy/Park Royal bodies).

5, 6 and 7 varied visually from Nos. 8 to 12 and 14 to 16, in that the beading on the cab ends was swept upwards to the centre.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p190563228

No.13 was different again, the beading being horizontal but the painted lining was swept upwards and continued horizontally, immediately below the cab windows.

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p190563228

The photo link to the car at Monmouth (May Hill)
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/monmouth_may_hill/monmouth(morant)may_hill_old1.jpg
can only be one of the 8 to 16 series (with the exception of No.13). Photographic evidence on the matter of the oil coolers seems to be at variance with what has been written in the books. The ex-works (GRCW) photos of No.5 onwards all show the oil coolers in place upon delivery to the GWR, so were not "retro-fitted" to any of the GCRW cars.

Cars Nos. 1 to 3 do not have the oil coolers in early 1934 photos but No.4 does (in Mid-1934), so I surmise that No.4 was the first to have the coolers fitted ex-works and 1 to 3 were retro-fitted. The problem with the gearbox oil overheating was identified early on, when the Birmingham to Cardiff express service was being introduced.

All the GRCW cars (5 to 16 plus the Parcels Car No.17) show the "gadget" fitted to the oil cooler RH bracket when delivered new but no sign of any visible air horns.

The photo of No.4 when new shows a single horn recessed into "nose" of cab (with just the hollow lip showing) but that was an electric "klaxon" (road vehicle type) which is said to have been confusing for track workers and was not loud enough....hence the experiments with air horns. The photos of the preserved No.4 show different front end detail from original......always a problem when using restored/preserved stock as reference point.

Nowhere have I found any precise facts about the whistles/horns, just vague references to changes to the original  configurations.

Regards,
John.

[Doddy]

Nowhere have I found any precise facts about the whistles/horns, just vague references to changes to the original configurations.

Hmmn! 

[John Candy]

A bit of "Googling" and I think I may have  clue.
I was assuming a horn would have a circular trumpet-like shape but some "Klaxon" products had a rectangular orifice like this..



 

The 1936 GWR Rule Book Appendix dealing specifically with these railcars says they had an "electric horn for sounding when stationary or moving slowly". That horn would have been a "Klaxon" since I have seen that name mentioned in reading books on the railcars.

If you look at the shape of that "gadget" fitted on the oil cooler bracket (I also have side-on views) it appears to match the profile of one of the pair shownn in the picture above.

So I think they were delivered with a Klaxon at each end but still am not sure where the exhaust-driven whistle would have been.... unless it is the "shiny" bit sticking sideways to the right of the Klaxon.

John.

[Doddy]

I'm going around in circles with this constant backpeddling, why not get in touch with the railcar guys at the Great Western Railway Society?
Who incidently have two pairs of GWR cast bronze air horns fitted on No.22 at Swindon works - from new.

[John Candy]

Several years ago I did make an enquiry and received following from a helpful chap who was a researcher at the NRM. The "Klaxon" is mentioned as being the original type fitted but subsequent details are "sketchy".
No.22 (the example at Didcot) and all the other Swindon-built (razor-edge) cars were fitted with Desilux E-flat and G-flat air horns from new (the order paperwork is copied in Judge's book).
Regards,
John.

Greetings John,
I'm fortunate enough to have both Russell and Judge (plus the supplement to
Russell) plus other source references to these beautiful cars. I've also some
very crude photos I took at Swindon when some were on the scrap line around
1960.
You ask about No 12 particularly, but this was one of 10 ordered together (8 -
17), which were all the same, except that the last one's body was modified as a
parcels car. There are some variations in the positioning of the horns, which
might suggest some difficulty in getting the right sound level on the track -
and this is born out by remembering conversations with staff who recalled them
in service. Russell, P67, shows No 11 with horns mounted each side of the
drivers cab (Aug 1938), just below the side windows, and there is a 4mm to the
foot drawing by Richard Bird showing this also.
However, in general the position seems to be below the front "buffer beam",
centrally, two horns, and above the air intake grille. Russell, P68, shows a
photo of No 13 following an accident, with the horns sticking out of the front
in this position (1938). There are later photos of the cars in later years
with 3 or 4 horns in this position (W14W at Birmingham Snow Hill - Russell
P141). Again this was probably to increase the volume for on-track staff.
Whilst writing this, I've turned up what I wanted - a reference to mounting
additional air horns alongside the driver's window as I mentioned before. 
(Russell P52). This shows No 17 (Russell erroneously calls it No 5) fitted with
these horns (1939), and says they were necessary after complaints from permanent
way gangs of the stealthy approach of the cars. The modified horns were said to
be audible for three miles! Nevertheless, these horns seem to have been
removed again fairly quickly, from the photos in the books.
Judge writes "..the first cars were supplied with normal electric klaxon-type
horns, one at each end. These were unsatisfactory, due partly to the note
produced being liable to confusion with road traffic, and partly to the fact
that the sound was insufficiently penetrating. Eventually two-note horns with
very strident notes were installed, and provision made for them to be operable
whether the car was moving or stationary." He doesn't say where these were
fitted, but there are other references to "stand-by" horns being provided later
for use when the car is stationary and the compressed air is not available.
"These are sounded by small independent compressors operated electrically, and
provide a warning signal similar to that given by the main horns.
I think these auxiliary horns may be the ones fitted by the cab windows, but I
can't see them in later photos, and the next design of car, No 18, did not have
them. It, and the later Swindon built series had them mounted in the buffer
beam area.
I have never seen photos of them mounted on the roofs of these cars; this might
have been tried once as an experiment, but neither Judge nor Russell have
pictures of it.
I hope this is of help to you. I can scan in some of the pictures or text if
you want them, and send to you off group.

Regards
Blair

[Doddy]

No.22 (the example at Didcot) and all the other Swindon-built (razor-edge) cars were fitted with Desilux E-flat and G-flat air horns from new (the order paperwork is copied in Judge's book).
Regards,
John.

See what I mean about going around in circles?
The Air Horns on 22 are cast bronze with GWR initials on them, and come as TWO pairs 'Main' and 'Backup' both pairs of which have differing bell sizes and tones between them. That is four horns in all. Two different hi-notes and two different lo-notes. That is four different notes in all.

These GWR designed air horns were the precursor to the BR standard Air Horn specification.

Unfortunately, this forum does not appear to allow sound files to be loaded otherwise I'd post my sound recordings of No.22 demonstrating the fact.

[John Candy]

Bob,
I have created FTP account so you can upload your sound file to gauge3.info .
The account details I have emailed to you.

Since my model is being finished in ex-works 1935 condition, the electric Klaxon horn seems to be the way to go but your recording of the Desilux air horns will be an interesting addition to the Wiki files for future reference purposes.

Regards,
John.

[Doddy]

John,
My recordings are not of desilux air horns, they are GWR Swindon Works air horns

[John Candy]

Bob,

Stores Superintendent, Swindon, placed orders for bronze horns with black trumpets in E Flat and G Flat (and associated compressors, valves, etc.) with C.V Desiderio, London, W1 in May 1939 and further orders thereafter. The Brand name was "Desilux" and is quoted on the order forms. These horns were for the new-build razor-edge cars.

I am pretty certain that these will be the horns which you have seen and recorded (although the compressors etc. will likely have been replaced later through wear and tear).

Regards,
John.

[Doddy]

This order is three years after the introduction of the railcars, these may be replacements for the original GWR cast bronze horns.

[John Candy]

Bob,
The first of the Swindon-built railcars (No. 19) was not completed until early 1940 (official photo of car ex-works is dated March 1940) and the first running trials were carried out in May.
It seems odd that, with the war under way, resultant shortages of steel and imported heavy oil, that the GWR were permitted by the Ministry of Supply to continue the construction of oil-burning vehicles...... at a time when road vehicles were trundling around with inflated bags burning gas and the oil imports were required by the military.
Regards,
John.

[Doddy]

The point being?