Author Topic: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread  (Read 2135 times)

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Offline Doddy

Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« on: Mar 02 2018 10:42 »
Plans are afoot!

The RS540 specification brushless motor and the Quanum 2208 Brushless Motor have arrived from China and the UK. The RS540 has FET (Field Effect Transistor) feedback for connection to a an ESC (Electric Speed Controller) based Brushless Controller with FET inputs, the Quanum comes without FET's, as does most Radio Control equipment on the market.

Whilst waiting for some remaining items to be delivered, I wanted to see how they fared physically in relation to Gauge 3 back-to-back wheel dimensions, although the main plan is really to test their slow speed control potential for model railway applications before I start making any decisions on manufacturing gearboxs and mounting frames.

Here they are seen in comparison to a set of G3 wheels from GRS - Ref: Slaters Plastikard G3125 Gauge 3 (G64) Coach Wheel 3' 7" Plain Disc

Here they are with the RS540.







And with the
Quanum 2208







The Quanum 2208 was selected for its small size potential for use in very small locomotives and Electric multiple Unit rolling stock where you don't want the motors intruding through the floor. Like these Isle-of-Wight, ex-LT1938 tube vehicles which have very small diameter wheels, typically in the region of about 2' 6" . . .



The RS540 was selected for my ADtranz 12X locomotive test rig where more power is required. This project was initially documented in this thread - http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,2087.msg13549.html#msg13549

The Brushless Motor Test Rig (barring acquiring some remaining cables) is almost complete parts wise, and nearly ready to be assembled to test various motor/controller combinations.



This build thread will be added to with my experiences with Radio Control, Digital Sound and of course the locomotive builds - providing I can find a suitable means of propulsion.



"You don't know what you don't know"

Offline hornbeam

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #1 on: Mar 03 2018 08:55 »
All very interesting, and now you have got me thinking about 38 stock in our scale!

Offline John Candy

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #2 on: Mar 03 2018 09:23 »
Quote
All very interesting, and now you have got me thinking about 38 stock in our scale!

You'll have to build it with air-operated doors (or at least simulated air operation)!
To be realistic they will have to open and shut several times before the starting signal bell will "ping".......memories of the Northern Line commute from Morden in the 1960's!

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline IanT

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #3 on: Mar 03 2018 10:43 »
It's certainly very ambitious Doddy - but why not?

It's Gauge 3 and we have a lot more room for interesting stuff on board...    :D

Regards,

IanT
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.

Offline Doddy

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #4 on: Sep 02 2018 20:55 »
Walsall Models G3 LMS ICI Wagon

Ideal for dragging behind a Whistler... 8F, 25, 45, 46, and latterley pairs of 20s and pairs of class 37's







"You don't know what you don't know"

Offline keith Bristol

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #5 on: Sep 04 2018 20:35 »
Interesting...

I saw those hoppers at Walsall... nice...

Offline Doddy

Digital Sound and the Deltic
« Reply #6 on: Nov 18 2018 07:30 »
For most, the evocative sound of the Deltic commands attention. Up close, the throb of the engine creates reverberations in your chest. But how to record the Deltic? Unknown to many is that the source of the engines howl and beating comes from each of the two engines respective air intakes. Problem is, the exhaust is on one side of the locomotive and the air intake is on the other.

The use of close-micing and several microphones allows a multi-track synchronised recording that can be edited later.

This is myself and Kevin West being filmed, recording 55 019 whilst under static test, previous recordings were made on the steep bank of Barrow Hill including the overload shutdown whilst under acceleration which made me reminisce being back on Stevenage new town station as the 14 coach Down 'Aberdonian' pulled away north on its evenings run up to Aberdeen.

The next step is to create and edit the digitally recorded samples and load an ARM 7 processor chip with 24bit (studio quality) sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHKTBvr0hk8&feature=youtu.be
"You don't know what you don't know"

Offline John Candy

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #7 on: Nov 18 2018 09:43 »
I can only once recall having experienced the sight and sound of a "Deltic" in full flight (I lived in the far South near Battle and was more accustomed to the endless rattle of the Hastings DEMUs).

Was around 1968, while sitting on New Barnet station, when I saw an UP express approaching in the distance, along the straight track, and the ground shook as it got closer.

A big contrast to the Cravens DMU which had taken me there from Kings Cross, to attend a hearing in the County Court...... it struggled to get started and limped all the way, the driver having more than once got down from his cab and hit something underneath with a spanner!

The next occasion I had cause to travel North was to Leeds but by then the HST 125s had taken over.... a shame but the restaurant car breakfast was excellent....all paid for by the firm! One thing I recall about the 125s was a dreadful smell under hard braking......must have been something to do with the composition of the brake blocks.

Regards,
John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline Doddy

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #8 on: Nov 18 2018 10:28 »
A big contrast to the Cravens DMU which had taken me there from Kings Cross
You can imagine how knackered I was then travelling out from and back to Stevenage every weekend by Class 105 Cravens. All stops KX to Stevenage.

And all that after visiting KX, St Pancras, and Euston stations, 3rd rail Class 501's or LT1938 stock out to Queens Park and Willesden Jnc for Willesden Electric Depot, Hymeks at Old Oak Common and back to Paddington for the evenings departures with Westerns, Hoovers and named WR Brush 4's.
"You don't know what you don't know"

Offline John Candy

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #9 on: Nov 18 2018 10:43 »
Quote
You can imagine how knackered I was then travelling out from and back to Stevenage every weekend by Class 105 Cravens. All stops KX to Stevenage.

Indeed, I had thought the Hastings units were bad enough until I had experienced the GNR suburban service!
At least the Hastings trains had a buffet car to ease the agony!

Regards,
John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline Doddy

Low Cost Sound
« Reply #10 on: Dec 27 2018 14:09 »
Following on from Tims request for low cost sound http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php/topic,1661.msg14579.html#msg14579

First of all, having a sound sub-section on this forum is likely to go the same way all other forums have gone - straight into the ground! RMWeb, ukdccsound and many others have caused endless pissing matches due to one thing.

It costs real money to do this right and people wont share the results for nothing. #metoo #nocando

Generally, there is no money being put in by the people who want the results of considerable amounts of time effort and lots of editing work, notwithstanding the politics of gaining access to locomotives and supporting that access with financial donations.

Hence the popularity of low cost sound units like mylocosound (£62) and others, compared with high cost ZIMO and LokSound DCC sound units (£187), and even more expensive MiTroniks combined power controller and Sound Units (£300+), of course G scale units like Dallee (£118) and Phoenix (£259) are primarily geared for US locomotives and not fully reprogrammable by users.

The DCC sound units from ZIMO and LokSound are fully user programmable via a USB cable or convertor box driven from a specific manufacturers PC sound programming application. But ONLY FOR YOUR OWN PROJECTS not commercially available projects! - from a sound perspective these are locked out, although access to general CV's can still be changed.

Projects like mylocosound, Dallee, Phoenix and the likes use a basic engine noise and then synthesize the engine noise to create acceleration and decceleration noises of the throttle being moved. This is synched to the output Vdc of the controller concerned and the sound follows the voltage applied to the motor.

Result - CRAP!

So, we need our own sounds, well , at least for those that tinny sounding expensive decoders are not going to pass muster, and not for those whose embarrassment at spending enormous amounts of money on low bitrate sound cards won't allow them to change their requirements. And for those whose budget is low cost - like mine these days, cheaper solutions are available if you want to put the work in.

Obtaining decent sounds are normally done by arranging personal access to specific locomotives.

This is a short list of principle sound sources -



Of course you need a method of recording them . . . this was taken from an old website I had in development.



The flow from locomotive, through high quality microphones, through a high quality recording device, processed by a good audio editor, and finally loaded onto a sound chip via PC software.

50 to 100 hours work for just the editing cycle would not be uncommon.

Why high end?, well because low cost recording devices like smartphones do not record quality sound with a wide dynamic range like high end microphones.

See this view of a GWR King Class whistle, most of the background can be heard but when the whistle blows, most low cost recording devices cannot cope with the transition in volume and clip the audio.




There is also the issue of Doppler Effect, of which sound recordings made lineside are absolutely useless for programming a soundchip.

Thesedays microphones in Sound Recording devices like GoPro are used allowing sound recordings to be made whilst the locomotive is in motion, something I had done with traditional Sennheiser microphones since 2007. See 56 003 below . . .



That way, locomotive recordings can be made of the locomotive under light engine and hauling railway stock, the loads, engine sounds and reaction to movement can be recorded, the sound clips edited on an audio editor and a more realistic representation of the locomotive is achieved.

John Candy asked for low cost sound card solutions, well I found this video today, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv8wqnk_TsA

I have checked out the hardware and will play with it once it all arrives in the post. This baby (Adafruit Audio FX Sound Board - WAV/OGG Trigger with 16Mb Flash Memory) is about £27 on Amazon.




References:Viele Spass! Have Fun!

Bob
"You don't know what you don't know"

Offline cabbage

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #11 on: Dec 27 2018 20:22 »
Robert,
This makes interesting reading. The pcb you show is very similar to the Explorer 64 pcb that I am about to experiment with. I plan to use it to feed GCode data files to my laser etcher. But it should be possible to pump sound files to a simple amplifier chip and then to a cone in cone isobarick speaker system

IanT knows more about this pcb than I do, at the moment! My personal sound system is a little "different" and has a headphone amplifier rated at 25w RMS  and main speakers a metre square.

It is too late in the evening for me to focus clearly but I will study this more in the morning.

Regards

Ralph

Offline John Candy

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #12 on: Dec 27 2018 21:00 »
I have been out for much of the day but this sound project seems to be going ahead in leaps and bounds!

My original suggestion was merely for a library of files as a guide to whistle sounds, to be used to adjust the output of sound cards of the MyLocoSound variety.
If a simple card which can accept engine sound from recordings is possible (I believe Brian Jones does sell a card which can be ordered with a limited choice of loco classes.... at a price) then that takes the game to a whole new level.

As Bob points out, the sound recordings still have to be obtained and that requires adequate equipment, skill and a willingness to obtain permissions and trudge around preservation sites.

Quote
First of all, having a sound sub-section on this forum is likely to go the same way all other forums have gone - straight into the ground! RMWeb, ukdccsound and many others have caused endless pissing matches due to one thing.

The sound files and other data can be held on the Gauge3.info server (the G3 Wiki) and will be available as long as I am around and provision will be made to ensure they survive me.

This forum will also be maintained for as long as it is serving a useful purpose.

I will follow developments with interest but will not comment on the technical aspects since I am out of touch with developments such as Arduino. I haven't written a full program since the mid-1980s when CP/M was the operating system for micro computers.

Regards,
John.

My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline IanT

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #13 on: Dec 27 2018 23:16 »
I've not thought too much about 'on-board' sound effects - certainly not to the level that Doddy has..

The Adafruit board looks like an interesting (and affordable) sound option and it would be simple to control via an external micro (such as an Arduino or MM) using I/O pins instead of physical 'buttons' (as shown in the YT example). A further step in complexity would be to use something like the E64 Micromite (which Ralph has just acquired) and which has USB and SD built-in. As far as I can tell from a quick look, the sound chip plays pre-loaded (FAT) sound files and comes 'pre-programmed' with certain sequences. The E64 has a file system that can access the SD card and could (in theory) feed other devices via USB - but we are moving into real complexity here. It also has SPI available - which can be used to re-programme the sound chip - which has quite a lot of programmable options it seems... but now we are getting into very advanced territory.

I checked and the VS1000 chip appears to cost about 15 Euros (inc VAT) one-off - so the Adafruit board at £22 (with 16Mb Flash) seems very reasonable. However the option is there to do a custom PCB if ever required - working off the same code base.

There may be all sorts of problems (Gotchas) using this device in practice for some applications - like trying to play continous sound and getting pauses whilst moving between files for instance - even short blips might be a problem. Less of a problem if you need discrete sounds (like whistles etc) of course. So I guess the solution is for someone to 'suck it and see' (what is possible).

Look forward to hearing more but I'm currently still in recovery (our Grandchildren only left yesterday) and building my strength for the New Year!    :-)

Regards,

IanT
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.

Offline cabbage

Re: Doddys HaupWerkstatte - My build thread
« Reply #14 on: Dec 28 2018 04:21 »
IanT,
Making a custom PCB might be beyond the resources of a single use user. What you can get is "prototyping board" which has single plated holes which do not connect. You connect these with a conductive ink pen, so in effect you play "join the dots"... Any mistakes can be rubbed out, or the entire board scrubbed in the sink. Once the correct PCB is written the board gets a few coats of varnish to protect it. It does require some soldering for connections etc, but it would simplify "one off" production.

My sons Synth uses this system. Parts of the original test circuits being made on cornflakes cardboard...

Regards

Ralph