Author Topic: Small Boiler test schedules  (Read 1452 times)

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Offline jamiepage

Small Boiler test schedules
« on: April 10, 2018, 08:42:27 PM »
I believe the Model Engineering world have agreed a new schedule for testing of Small Boilers (<3barlitre)...which seems, to all intents and purposes,  to replicate the schedule already enjoyed- and proven-  by members of G1MRA and 16mm Assoc., but not so far by G3S.

Perhaps soon, (after initial certification of the boiler by manufacturer and/ or approved Inspector), G3S members might also be encouraged to benefit from the pragmatic and proven work done by those two organisations, and likewise be trusted to carry out and record their own annual  Steam Test/ Safety Checks should they so wish.

If true, it might require a reassessment of some opinions though!

Quote
I believe the rules change when you leave G1 and 16mm, here I speak as a member of the 16mmngm and the G3S. A G1 or 16mm model is that, A MODEL, a G3 locomotive is A SMALL LOCOMOTIVE and is not a model. Thus it needs to be treated and seen differently.

Unquote




Offline MikeWilliams

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2018, 08:01:50 AM »
I believe the Model Engineering world have agreed a new schedule for testing of Small Boilers (<3barlitre)...

Without wishing to open the debate again at this early stage, where does that come from Jamie?

Mike

Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2018, 10:34:14 AM »
I am due to attend the Peterborough training day on the 21st of this month. There I expect to receive my copy of the "Orange Book" which is the new rules for boiler testing. There fore I cannot say for certain that the quote from Jaime is now valid. I do know that there is a section on the course for steel boilers which is not in the "Green Book".

Personally I would never use the 3bar litre rule as it is too vague as under this a steam boiler running at 3litres providing steam at 1BAR is classed as the same as a boiler of 0.25litres providing steam at 12BAR...

After the 21st I believe I will be the only G3S boiler tester in Derbyshire. Although I have built boilers of two unconventional but proven designs I will not fire than at a GTG until another boiler tester can certify them to the new Orange Book standards.

Regards

Ralph

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2018, 10:35:09 AM »
Why not open it up again, Mike?
Removing unnecessary regulation is a great way to 'encourage interest and participation in G3', to the benefit of us all, whether in G3 or not.

The 16mm Assoc website have a new Shed Notice which introduces the new Code, and has a link to a new 'Vol 2 Small Boiler' book.

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2018, 10:42:35 AM »
Herewith from the 16mm Notice (Apologies to them if I should not have reproduced this)


Insurance Conditions Relating to Boilers and Gas Tanks

The guidelines used by the Association of 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers, for the testing of steam boilers, are based on the Boiler Test Code 2018, Volumes 2 and 3. Volume 2 applies to small boilers under 3 bar.litres and Volume 3 applies to LPG tanks under 250ml. These codes apply to almost all boilers and gas tanks used in 16mm scale live steam locomotives.

The codes do not require repeat hydraulic testing of small boilers or gas tanks unless repairs or changes have been made. The test certificates provided by commercial manufacturers are fully acceptable as proof of successful completion of the initial hydraulic test. Volume 2 of the code requires repeat hydraulic testing of brass boilers every three years, albeit at 1.5 times planned working pressure, which ought to avoid the need to remove fittings. The reason for this is the risk of dezincification in brass boilers when exposed to water with any impurities. Volume 2 of the code does not require repeat testing of copper boilers. The majority of boilers fitted to 16mm scale live steam locomotives are copper boilers.

For example, a standard Roundhouse Argyll uses a copper boiler with a bar.litre capacity of 0.766, i.e. well inside the limit set by volume 2 of the code. The Roundhouse Q class gas tank as fitted to the twin-burner Darjeeling D class Garratt is 45ml capacity, again well inside the limit set by volume 3 of the code.

It is recommended that small boilers be fitted with a safety valve and a pressure gauge which has been marked by a red line to indicate the pressure at which the safety valve is set to lift. A steam test should be carried out and documented by the owner every 12 months in order to ensure the correct operation of the safety valve at the correct release pressure. This should be recorded on a copy of the Pressure Vessel Certificate 2018. The boiler and the pipework installation should also be checked at the same time.

Where any injury or damage is caused by a member’s boiler, resulting in a claim under the Association’s insurance policy the member needs to show that the boiler was in compliance with the guidelines of the code.

The 3 bar.litre limit is defined as the internal volume of the boiler (in litres) multiplied by the working pressure (in bar), where 1 bar = 14.5038 lb/in² and 1 litre = 1.76 pints.

It should also be noted that the 3 bar.litre is the guideline which is required by the Association’s insurance policy – other insurance policies may differ (especially for some exhibitions). If you are in any doubt, contact your local boiler tester via technical.matters@16mm.org.uk

If your boiler is above the 3 bar.litre limit then Volume 1 of the Boiler Test Code 2018 defines the testing regime for the boiler. Once initially certified, a repeat hydraulic test to one and one half times normal working pressure will be required and this will be valid for 4 years from the date of the test. A steam test is also a mandatory and required at intervals not exceeding 14 months.

It should be noted that a test certificate is invalid if the test equipment does not have a valid calibration record.

New professionally made boilers and gas tanks fitted to a locomotive or as part of a kit should be provided with a valid hydraulic test certificate. It should be noted that the boiler certificate generally only covers the hydraulic test and not a steam test. It is strongly recommended that a steam test is carried out if your model falls below the 3 bar.litre level. For “Homemade” boilers, volume 2 of the code requires that a hydraulic test is carried out at twice normal working pressure, followed by a system test with all boiler fittings at one and a half times times normal working pressure, followed by a steam test. An Association Boiler Inspector is able to perform this test – a list of Boiler Inspectors is provided at the foot of this page and in Bulletin.


Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2018, 10:48:56 AM »
And this is the text from title page of Orange book Vol 2.

The Boiler Test Code 2018 VOLUME 2 - Boilers under 3 bar litres Effective from 1st May 2018
Prepared by:
101?4” Gauge Railway Society, 71?4” Gauge Society,
Association of 16mm Narrow Gauge Modellers,
Gauge 1 Model Railway Association, Midland Federation of Model Engineers, Model Power Boat Association, Northern Association of Model Engineers, Southern Federation of Model Engineering Societies
 


However, the G3S and its Inspectors can still presumably continue with its own rules, as described by its Derbyshire rep!
Just so long as it doesn't interfere with the rest of us.

Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2018, 10:54:04 AM »
You have quoted me in your first entry. I am a firm believer in rules and regulations -because I come from an industry where they save lives. Most of my computer designs used pressurised  liquid Sulphur Hexaflouride at 8BAR. SF6 is about a docile a coolant as they come but it has an SG 2.3... thus a full cabinet has a floor loading of 18tonnes per square metre.

I well remember the customer who instructed the installation crew to move the position of the cabinets in accordance with the rules of Feung Shuei. Within 24 hours of being filled the cabinets had begun to punch through the 10cm thick concrete floor on the second floor.

Provide a valid Southern Fed, NAME, NZAusSME or MME, TUV etc certification and your loco is welcome ony tracks at a GTG. If it does not have one, then in short order I can provide you with one fresh off the pad.

Other wise it is a static exhibit.

Regards

Ralph

Offline Andy B

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2018, 10:55:22 AM »
Link to the new volume 2 for small boilers:
https://www.16mm.org.uk/download/5774/

Andy

Offline Andy B

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 11:14:14 AM »
It looks to me as though the rules are now there in black and white.
I, too, work in a highly regulated industry.

An individual inspector can refuse to test a boiler for which they do not feel competent to do so (e.g.  0.25 litre @ 12 bar), so it would be up to the builder / owner of such an extreme case to find one who would / might.
But the 'mainstream' that this code is aimed at would typically be up to around 0.75l / 4 bar.

It is now, surely, a G3S committee decision (guided by the collective wisdom of their boiler inspectors) - is the 2018 'Orange Book' now fully accepted (all 3 volumes)?
If yes, then all G3S boiler inspectors and members should abide by it.
If no, why not?

Andy

Offline Andy B

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 11:18:20 AM »
P.S. I think it would be quite reasonable for the G3S to put in place a condition for its inspectors / inspections that they will not cover anything in excess of, say 5.5 bar (80psi) under a 'small boiler' inspection. That immediately removes the 'extreme' cases, such as was suggested.

Andy

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 11:24:43 AM »
Thank you for the anecdote.
I'm not going to waste time debating the negative, unexpected, or counter- intuitive  affects of bad or unnecessary regulation, but will say you have no monopoly on experience within safety critical environments. Many here have also.

Now, back to Small Boilers.

Personally I would never use the 3bar litre rule...

Really? Is that G3S policy for their Boiler Inspectors, or a personal foible?

The G1MRA/ 16mm Assoc approach has always been legal, safe, and insurable (in spite of some protestations to the contrary), and has facilitated the safe operation of hundreds (thousands?) of small boilers over the years. It really has 'encouraged interest and participation in..' our hobby.

If the ME world have also accepted the code then the pragmatism, and the recognition of all that empirical data should be applauded and welcomed I  would have thought.
Anything to make safe participation easier is a jolly good thing, surely?

It is more than a little dispiriting that the initial response from a G3S Boiler Inspector should be so negative.









 
 



Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 11:45:57 AM »
Firstly, I would not use the 3Bar Litre as a personal foible -like my aversion to stacking ingots of Cerium near cylinders of Fluorine gas...

What I have stated are the rules and conditions. If you do not like them then that is not my problem -is it?. The certification process is free and should take no more than an hour.

The insurance company simply insist that your equipment is safe. Certification ensures that!

Regards

Ralph

Offline Andy B

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 11:56:31 AM »
I am very sorry that, once again, we do not appear to be able to have a focused discussion based around facts pertinent to small boilers and their use in G3 locomotives.
Brave of you to try again, Jamie - and very frustrating that it has (so far) not succeeded in a satisfactory outcome.
If / when it manages to get back 'on track', I shall contribute further.

Andy

Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 12:09:34 PM »
As far as I understand it... The Southern Fed group will change over to "The Orange book" along with other groups. As the G3S is a member of the Southern Fed group it has to use  "Orange Book" rules and regs. My 16mm locos are due for red certification in June. So I will cart them up to Butterly for this. I have no problems with this.

If Norman says "this needs fixing" or something - there are complaints .

I just do it.

Regards

Ralph

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 12:12:31 PM »
What I have stated are the rules and conditions.

Wrong. The rules and conditions recognise the <3barlitre code. It is you, either personally or as a G3S rep., who have stated you would never use it.

The certification process is free

Wrong. Unnecessary annual certifications are not free, neither in time nor money. Nor cost- free in the rather more nebulous 'encouragement to participate' I would have expected from the hobby.

The insurance company simply insist that your equipment is safe.


Wrong. That is an impossible absolute. They have always mandated an intial hyd test etc, then recommended an annual inspection, by owner or other. Just about the code that you seem uncomfortable with now.
Their actuaries presumably have been and are content with the degree of safety and its tail risk.

Certification ensures that!

Wrong. I refer you to unintended, unintentional, counter- intuitive consequences of box- ticking over regulation.


Again, I have to say that the negative tone in response to what could be a good news story for our hobby is ...odd.