Author Topic: Small Boiler test schedules  (Read 422 times)

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Offline John Candy

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2018, 01:14:14 PM »
The insurance cover provided to the G3S (as prescribed by the copy certificate I was given a couple of years ago), exempts small boilers from the requirement to hold a valid/current test certificate.
The insurance also covers "private" functions (i.e. not functions organised by the G3S) so any G3S member can hold a private function and benefit from the G3S policy cover even though small boilers have no certificate.

The G3S regulation that small boilers must have a certificate does therefore not apply to "private" functions but only to functions organised by the G3S.

John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline MikeWilliams

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2018, 01:57:50 PM »
Jamie, this does indeed sound like good news and I think we need to give the committee time to consult with our testers.

We all need to remember that this is NOT the Gauge 3 Society forum but an independent platform much like several others, so we should not expect all committee members to take part and comment.

Mike

Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2018, 02:36:32 PM »
So, Jamie all you can seemingly do is say, "You Are Wrong!". So I am going to flip you and ask the following question.

AT WHAT PRESSURE DO YOU FEEL THAT A 3 BAR LITRE BOILER IS UNSAFE?

I have spent the lunchtime digging out my fathers manuals from Rhodesia Rail, British Rail and my own copies of the works of HG and LBSC as well as KN Noble. Most of the "classical" G3 designs use a bore and stroke of 25x13mm at a working pressure of 5.5BAR with a volume of around 450ml. My own boiler for "Southern Magyar" is a copy of "Design 14" from KN Noble. The volume of the boiler is 773ml (measured by weight of water). This according to you I could use at 3.8BAR without testing.





According to KN Noble this design has to be shell pressure tested at 200PSI for 20 minutes to ensure no leaks. Which I think is quite reasonable given the large number of joints. I plan to use it at 4BAR with a bore and stroke of 30x 22mm. I spent the better part of a year doing the calculations for the device and I still have the spreadsheets that I developed to perform the calculations, thus I will be able to tell you some of the details of your boiler to make that pressure.


I await your reply with interest....


regards

ralph


Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2018, 02:41:24 PM »
Indeed John.
Any G3S organised GTGs (however you define that) were/ are constrained with an unnecessary requirement to have participating Small Boilers annually inspected/ signed off by a G3S Inspector. (Uniquely I think amongst the scenic railwaying Societies)

How  was/ is that considered to be consistent with a stated aim 'to encourage interest and  participation and running of scenic Gauge 3 model railways' ?

But anyway, perhaps the matter will become moot if G3S embrace what appears to have become accepted by the ME world, and accept the G1MRA/ 16mm Assoc approach.
Good news, if so.

ps Mike, I have just seen your reply. Thank you.
Yes, I understand your point. As a non member though, I raise it here, and think it appropriate to do so as an active- independent!- G3 modeller.
A private, limited group of individuals can always set their own rules for whatever it is they want to get up to (!) in private, but the doings of a Society that declares itself 'to encourage participation etc in G3' is different.
Such a Society has an impact (or should jolly well aim to have) on the G3 movement as a whole.

I want to see more G3 activity so dislike anything that may drag on that potential activity, wherever it comes from. (FWIW, when a member, I did query the illogicality, offered to investigate the G1/16mm etc approach and present a proposal for the Society to consider. There was absolutely zero interest in even discussing it, so I left)

But, if G3S are now to embrace (what I hope will be) the new code, I see only good in that.

 

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2018, 02:54:25 PM »
Ralph,
Crikey, we've reached RED BOLD type already! :)

I'll just stick to my G1 type Small Boilers, mount them in pre- group era G3 locos and enjoy them (fully insured) without looking for the complications that you/G3S seem to want.

ps I might say however, that your reference to 'classical' G3 designs tilts back towards 2 1/2 in. Model Engineering rather than the sort of thing that G3S might (also?) be encouraging.

At risk of repeating myself, my target list of G3 locos are all smaller than many G1 or 16mm 'classical' designs. The design traits within G1 and 16mm activity are entirely appropriate to produce serviceable scenic G3 model locomotives. Indeed, more so, I would contend.

Sure, I'll accept I won't be able to sit behind them and be dragged along.. but then there are other Societies that cater for, and promote, that sort of activity.


Offline John Candy

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2018, 02:57:21 PM »
Quote
Indeed John.
Any G3S organised GTGs (however you define that) were/ are constrained with an unnecessary requirement to have participating Small Boilers annually inspected/ signed off by a G3S Inspector. (Uniquely I think amongst the scenic railwaying Societies)

Jamie,

Allow me to "flesh out" what i said earlier.

The G3S has zero authority when it comes to specifying what is (or is not) permissible at a member's Get-Together.

What is allowed at a GTG is the sole prerogative of the member upon whose land the event is held.
The only circumstances under which the G3S could dictate conditions would be if it were a "normal" MES which owned and operated its own assets (i.e. running track).

That is not the case here and it is the individual member (as occupier of the premises and with consequent personal liabilities) who sets the rules.

The insurance policy still covers the individual member.

Regards,
John.
My fellow Members, ask not what your Society can do for you, ask what you can do for your Society.

Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2018, 03:23:23 PM »
The "Classical Designs" mentioned are all from Locomotive Design... Mallard, Coronation Scot, Flying Scot, Merchant Navy and the 4-6-4T Furness tank loco and all run at 5BAR. By "Classical" I meant the types of loco you would expect to see on a G3 track.
I would expect a GTG runner to look in askance at Southern Magyar, a Golsdorf Adriatic Tank loco -or a Golwe. That is I think to be expected as these are not "Classical"  English G3 locos. And after building I will dutifully show my Certs to the runner of the GTG.

As the runner of the GTGs on my track I have a simple rule. Steam Locos have certificates. I do not care if your loco is an IC powered by alcohol made from fermented cane stalks, Battery Electric, Diesel , Gas Turbine or Electro Gyroscopes...

If your loco does not have one as above I will test and certify it Free Of Charge while you drink my tea and munch my cake. All the steam locos run on my tracks have been used by G3S members, all of whom have shown me their certificates.

quote:

That is not the case here and it is the individual member (as occupier of the premises and with consequent personal liabilities) who sets the rules.

unquote:

These are my rules...

regards

ralph

Offline IanT

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2018, 03:30:48 PM »
Oh dear - not a little misinformation being aired again if I may say so.

The Societies position has always been that (as a member of Southern Fed) we should work to SF boiler test codes, which also (btw) allows those G3S members who wish to run at N2.5GA Rallies to do so. The existing 'Green' book was due to be replaced by the 'Orange' books (there at three of them) on March 1st but as I understand it, this was delayed because of the heavy snow at the end of Feb.

The three books cover >3bl, <3bl and gas tanks. The key point about the new 'codes' is that now 16mm & G1MRA will also use them. I think I said some time ago on this Forum that I thought there might be a "coming together" (if folk were patient) and this now seems to have happened.

If the new codes have now been published, then they will automatically become the new boiler codes used by the G3S (as well as 16mm & G1MRA!). I know that the Society has already ordered a number of printed sets of the new Orange books (from SF) but as far as I am aware these have not been delivered yet. When they are, they will be distributed to the Society's boiler inspectors for their use. The current test documentation remains unchanged as I understand it.

And that's it - no fuss, no committee meeting required - we are members of SF and observe their boiler test codes. Three of the Society's BI's attended a SF Boiler Seminar in January (and as Ralph alluded to) more will attend further Seminars later this year. As a Society we are therefore well prepared to adopt and implement both the existing and new codes as required.

Regards,

IanT
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2018, 03:36:22 PM »
Thank you John.

Presently however,  a member who asks G3S for guidance on what documentation to insist upon if they wished to organise a G3 GTG, or a member who asks G3S for guidance on how to document their Small Boilered loco so they could participate in GTGs, would both still be briefed on a requirement for annual tests by G3S Inspectors.
Unless it has changed in the last couple of years. (And the response from one G3S inspector suggests not.)

However, if the new orange book 2 is adopted, then- and this is the point - G3S will hopefully encourage activity without adding unnecessary complications.

Ralph, you've completely lost me. Perhaps you should read Vol 2, Orange book, then wait to see whether G3S adopt the it, then decide whether you will continue to insist on personal, additional test requirements. And why.

Perhaps, if attitudes change, you might even start to see 'new' G3 locos- ones with Small Boilers and G1-type design influences, rather than just the 'bigguns'.
You won't however, if you blindly insist on not recognising a 3barlitre distinction that the insurance Company etc have long been content with

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2018, 03:52:59 PM »
Ian,

So no disinformation then, fundamentally.

The ME world have adopted a code pretty well identical to that already used by G1MRA/ 16mm Assoc- as I reported.

If the G3S are also therefore to adopt the same code, for their scenic railwaying, then that is a good thing.

BTW, the G3S stance did indeed allow members who wished to run at N2.5GA rallies the ability to do so, but at some inconvenience to members or prospective members who were looking simply to enjoy scenic railwaying.
That betrayed a fundamental lack of focus on what the Society was actually about.
Similarly, any 'coming together' should have been between scenic railwaying Societies; and this 'new' code might have been adopted long ago if the will had been there.

But, if G3S are now going to accept the 'new' code, then good. What's past is past.
 

Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2018, 04:58:38 PM »
I note you still haven't answered my question. At which pressure do you consider a 3BAR litre boiler unsafe?

And yes, I will insist on valid certificates for steam locos as I have yet to have one under the 3BAR litre rating...

Regards

Ralph

Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2018, 05:34:57 PM »
Ralph,
Bluntly my opinion is irrelevant.

The opinions of the insurance company with their risk assessors, their actuaries, and their SMEs however, are entirely relevant.
They have been happy with the G1/16mm code, and are therefore presumably happy to see it incorporated into the new orange book.


Also entirely relevant  is the empirical data already produced by many thousands of hours of successful, safe, enjoyable, operation generated under those same G1/ 16mm codes.

Therefore, I'm happy.


So let me turn it around this time.
Why have you already decided to insist on certification beyond this code if/ when G3S adopt it?


Offline jamiepage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2018, 05:39:24 PM »
Ralph,

And yes, I will insist on valid certificates for steam locos as I have yet to have one under the 3BAR litre rating...


 As I said earlier, perhaps you should wait to read the 'new' code.

You seem now to have conjured up a future where boilers have no 'valid certificates'.
No-one else has ever, to my knowledge, suggested that.



Offline cabbage

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2018, 05:59:17 PM »
Quote:
"My opinion is irrelevant"
Unquote:

On this we are agreed. As is the fact that small boilered steam locos do not appear on my tracks. The small boilered "Tich" would fall under your limit...

Ralph

Offline IanT

Re: Small Boiler test schedules
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2018, 06:04:45 PM »
"If the G3S are also therefore to adopt the same code, for their scenic railwaying, then that is a good thing."

Yes, thank you Jamie - but there has never been any question or doubt about whether G3S would adopt the new codes or not. As a SF member we use their boiler test codes - and I believe that if you look at what has been agreed between the various MELG organisations (in the form of Orange Book 2) that there has been movement on all sides. It has certainly not just been a matter of adopting the existing 16mm/G1MRA guidelines.

However - bottom line  - whether you are a 16mm, G1MRA or G3S Member - your small (<3BL) boiler will now be subject to exactly the same boiler test codes. So really, there seems little left to debate in this particular area now....much as you seem to want to do so.

Regards,

IanT 
Nothing's ever Easy - At least the first time around.