BR Maroon

[Peaky 556]

Following up a question recently asked on the G3S Facebook page, which is the "best" currently available equivalent to good old BR Maroon?
In the Halfords range I have heard mentioned Ford Burgundy Red and Rover Damask Red.
Thanks,
Tim

[John Candy]

Tim,

Looking at the BS 381C charts, "Maroon" (541) actually appears as a shade of brown on the computer screen. However, the book on the Mk1 coaches states that BS 381 540 (Crimson) was the shade specified for the 1949 "blood & custard" livery and this was replaced by the all-over "maroon", using BS 381 541 as the reference, with the intention of replicating the LMS colour.

Ralph may be able to throw some light on this, since he has an old tin of LMS "lake" which resembles nothing like the colour seen on LMS coaches, until they had been varnished.

Regards,
John.

P.S. On re-reading, I should make it clear that the LMS 1946 livery is the maroon colour mentioned and not the pre-war crimson "lake". It may be that the same "lake" was used but with a different finishing varnish.

[midnight miller]

Hello All

Meany years ago now me and a mate stood on the bridge at the south end of Derby station and watched an ex works Peak in rail blue come out with the Derby test train made up of maroon mk1 coaches and out of the 8 or 9 coaches there where not two the same colour .
Also talking some time ago (the subject keeps coming back) taking to Liz Marsden the finished shade is governed by the undercoats to a great extent .
   
                                                                      John

[cabbage]

My instructor in how to apply "lake" was a former LMS "J" shop apprentice. The finished lake colour is highly dependant on the surface primer. Leonard stated that pink, matte red, or red oxide was used  for wood coaches, locos, and coronation scot locos respectively. I used pink.

You may not like the colour John but it is the genuine stuff!!!

Regards

Ralph

[Andy B]

Ralph,
I wouldn't expect any apprentice out of 'J' shop to be much of a paint expert - that was the smithy!
Painting was in 'G' shop, then more recently (from later BR days) in 'E' shop, where it still is now. We don't paint whole vehicles any more though - the carbody is in pre-painted sub-assemblies.

I don't doubt anything that he says about colours, however.

Andy

[cabbage]

Andrew, you try lip reading someone in their 90's!!! G and J look very similar. But the principle still applies.

Regards

Ralph

[AllWight]

Hello Tim

Your question regards the final look of the ford Burgundy red is soon to be answered as last night i was applying the yellow lining and i varnished it up. I still have the black line to apply as well as the coach numbers and it will receive at least one more coat of varnish. The varnish has darkened/intensified the colour slightly. But as someone else said in a rake of 9 coaches no two were the same, who is to say what the treatment of the coaches from the primers and the subsequent layers of paint used to build up an intensity of the colour/hue. Also the atmospherics at the time will also affect the outcome of the paint finish. I am sure we have all seen paint bloom due to moisture in the air or too cold a surface.

Once i have finished the transfers and the varnish i will post a picture up and you can all decide if its right or wrong. I am certain there will be some people that will say something regards the colour as we all see colours differently. If you want an example of this look at any painting by Monet.

Mark   

[Peaky 556]

Thanks all for the replies.  As I suspected, it's all in the eye of the beholder, and I'm quite happy for a variety of shades in a rake of coaches.
John, I see what you mean by the browny shade of BS381C colour 541; this and the similar colours offered all look like mud!  Are we sure this isn't the Western Region colour? 
I shall probably paint up a few samples of both Ford burgundy and Rover Damask, with pale undercoats, and see if they are similar enough to each other to be plausibly "the same colour" but different enough to suggest different degrees of aging and sunlight exposure. 
If there are any other suggestions of car colour that someone has used, please say!
Regards,
Tim

[AllWight]

hi all just to share a list i found via the interweb of halfords colours and their uses in the modelling liveries may be of use to you all at some point


MR/LMS/BR red Rover damask red
GWR/BR loco green Rover Brooklands green
GWR/BR loco green Ford laurel green
BR diesel light green band Ford highland green
BR coach carmine Ford rosso red
BR coach cream Vauxhall gazelle beige
BR coach cream (well worn) Peugeot antelope beige
BR diesel blue VW Pargas blue
BR steam loco blue Peugeot royal blue
BR loco yellow warning panel Vauxhall mustard yellow
LNER garter blue/BR diesel blue, but slightly more blue Ford fjord blue, less green
LNER garter blue VW Pargas blue
LMS Coronation Blue Rover Pageant mid-blue
Stanier Coronation blue Peugeot royal blue
GWR or Pullman coach brown Rover russet brown
GWR coach cream Rover Primula yellow
SR dark olive green Land Rover Coniston green
LNWR/LYR coach plum lower panels Daewoo dark red
LNWR coach bluey-white upper panels Daewoo Casablanca white
CR steam loco Peugeot royal blue
SDJR blue Rover midnight blue
CR dark blue Rover midnight blue
Stroudley LBSCR ochre BMC tan
LBSCR umber Vauxhall Brazil brown
N.Staffs maroon Vauxhall Gambia red
NER coach red Vauxhall Gambia red
LYR coach upper panels Plastikote nut brown

Mark

[Peaky 556]

Thanks Mark,
It's still a very good range but can we all go to town and buy up half a dozen of these old colours or they will be dropped in favour of just modern metallics!

There is a similar (maybe more comprehensive) list in the Gauge 3 Wiki by the way.

Rgds, Tim

[John Candy]

For GWR post-1928 green, I use BS 381C 224 "Deep Bronze Green" which happens to be the colour which the army specified for their Land Rovers and which was also applied as standard to the civilian version.

Interestingly, the BS chart sample appears on the screen to be very much darker than the actual colour.......in much the same way as the "Maroon" appears to be nearly brown.

Regarding availability of car paints in discontinued colours, so long as you know the manufacturer's code or the BS number, it is easy to have a spray can made to order. The can I used to re-spray the 45XX for Mark Thatcher was mixed to order in satin finish (while he waited) at a cost of around 18GBP.

John.

[LankyTank]

Just to throw my tuppenny worth into the mix - sat looking at a Halfords rattle can for Vauxhall Burgundy Red, that's earmarked for a G1 BR Mk1 FK coach, already primed in Red.

Barry

[Peaky 556]

Just to throw my tuppenny worth into the mix - sat looking at a Halfords rattle can for Vauxhall Burgundy Red, that's earmarked for a G1 BR Mk1 FK coach, already primed in Red.
Barry

Ah good! That's another one for the subtle range of colour variations on BR Maroon then!  (I wonder if there's a burgundy in Honda and Renault and Volkswagen and...........)

[Peaky 556]

Once i have finished the transfers and the varnish i will post a picture up and you can all decide if its right or wrong.
Mark   

Mark, there is no right or wrong for us as we are lucky enough to be modelling a real-life railway with all its dirt and grime and mixtures of out-shopped and ten-year-old faded paintwork and everything in between, not to mention the inadvertent regional variations and the human element of not stirring paint pots properly.  There may even be variations side-to-side on the same coach because of the South or SW side facing the sun more throughout life!  I'm now looking forward to virtually using an artists pallet to recreate a motley train of supposedly BR Maroon coaches. 😁

[Peaky 556]

Sticking with shades of maroon for the moment, whilst the wife was shopping for frozen stuff I nipped into Halfords next door (as you do) and quickly surveyed their range of shades similar to Rover Damask Red.  These are what I considered similar enough (somewhat conservatively) to be very acceptable in the same rake of coaches:
Vauxhall Burgundy Red (as used by Barry)
Volkswagen Gambia Red
Renault Etruscan Red
Nissan Red 465
Mercedes Jupiter Red
Ford Burgundy Red (Mark's shade I think?)
Citroen Venetian Red

Hope that helps broaden the interest and realism away from the uniformly identical shade used by Kingscale!  Any feedback welcomed.
Rgds, Tim