Has anyone handled one of these models and been able to measure it?
I'm told it is "G Scale", the true scale of which seems to vary somewhat. They are for 45mm gauge but the bodies look to be quite accurate models of RCH 1923 7-plank Private Owner coal wagons with end doors - a very common type. Even the solebars, springs and axleboxes look acceptable. They will need at least new wheels, bearings, brakes, buffers and couplings.
BUT only if they are the correct size, which is normally 16ft 6in long. Please does anyone have access to a sample to measure?
Oh, and they cost just £45 each, new.
Mike
Dimensions quoted in this this post (#55) on gscalecentral:
http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/f/tm.aspx?high=&m=40100&mpage=3#50454 (http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/f/tm.aspx?high=&m=40100&mpage=3#50454).
Wagon
250mm long over buffers (body 222mm long)
100mm wide
108mm High from rail top.
There is also discussion about Percy's suitability as a G3 std gauge loco later on page 3 of the thread, and some close-up pictures of the wagons on page 2.
Some places (on-line) are advertising the wagons at less than £40 each.
Andy
Some intersting posts on this link Andy;
"With the face off it looks a pretty good model. Even looks as tho the end tipple door has been modelled, if these had come along a few years ago I may have stayed UK prototype, but alas I am too far down the line now! The coaches remind me of those on the North Sunderland branch at Seahouses"
Also the coach dimensions are given as;
Coach
360mm long over buffers (body 330mm long)
108mm wide
143mm High from rail top
Mark P has already converted one of these engines and is sending the Newsletter the details. I am sure that purists will not be too interested but I think some G3 'Grandads' might be quite happy to encourage younger family engine drivers to do some 'Thomas' running on their railways.
So the wagons are jusy about scale length and width, and have correct body details. Think I'll buy one and have a go!
Mike
I was more interested in the coach potential Mike, as at 45 pounds each (RRP) these also look pretty good value. So having a few moments before Management served dinner, I've had a quick look for something prototypical...
The best I have found (so far) are the Metropolitan Railways (four door) Jubilee carriages. I think these were 25' 9" in length, so 347mm (vs 330mm in the model) and had a very similar window arrangement apart from circular door-tops. I guess if you could modify (or ignore) this, then you would have a pretty good head start on a near-scale G3 carriage at a very reasonable cost. There were also five compartment 3rds & 3rd/brake versions but then you are into a more severe 'cut & add' operation. I was only interested in something fairly simple - like re-gauging.
I have not looked into the detail, but I believe the Met eventally sold some of these Jubilee carriages to the Mid-Suffolk (John will know more about the Middy I think.....see http://www.gauge3.org.uk/members/middytrain.jpg), the Weston, Clevedon & Portishead, the Nidd Valley and that some even ended up on the Rhymney. So they would be not look out of place on many light railways.
Can anyone find a good prototype match for a (longer) bogie carriage (using two bodies)?
In addition to the link I have added into Ian's message above (providing an archive photo from c.1908), below is a photo which I took at Tenterden Town in 2006 of a Metropolitan District Rly coach.
Having just looked at the Bachmann website, the 4-wheel carriages are very 'Brighton' in panelling, general outline and roof profile.
A reasonable LBSC bogie carriage could possibly be made from these bodies.
John.
They are quite close John but the nearest I've seen is the 1st Class Jubilee (No 321) which closely matches the window/panelling layout of the Bachmann coach - although the windows are more square on the original.
Anyone who has a copy can find a photo of it in 'Metropolitan Railway Rolling Stock' by J R Snowden - page 24.
In fact, looking further into Met coaching stock - the 'Bogie Stock' that followed the Jubilee (4 wheeler) and the earlier (8 wheeler) stock was a six compartment unit on 7' bogies. You could probably get two of these carriages out of three Bachmanns (see drawings on pages 30/31 of the Met book if you have it). Another interesting possibility is that some of these bogie coaches were converted to Motor coaches - that had four compartments plus the driver/engine compartments. One Bachmann & some plasticard scratch building perhaps?
I suspect there will be a few variations on the theme once people start looking at it. There certainly seems to be some useful opportunities with the Met coaches (and the other railways where much of this stock ended up).
Here is an archive photo of a Met. Jubilee all First
http://basilicafields.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/the-metropolitan-railway-jubilees/
John.
The 'top' panelling is not the same in these photos John.
It seems that the photo I've been looking at is one of the 27 Met Jubilees that were modernised and put back into service in Feb 1909. They had electric lighting and heating installed - "including external panelling in the same style as the bogie stock".
It is this "style" that most resembles the Bachmann coaches. Anyway - I think we've beaten this one well and truely to death. :D
Anyone else got any good prototype matches as conversion suggestions?
Going back to the LB&SCR carriages which I mentioned earlier, here are a couple of links showing 4-wheel examples:-
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/661.html
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/stroudley/661_jan02_014_12h.jpg
The LBSC 'all First' bogie stock was of similar pattern and roof outline to the 4-wheelers above.
Below, Metropolitan 'Ashbury' bogie stock, of the type used for early experiments with electric MU traction to which Ian referred earlier:-
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/bash/index.html
http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/coach394.html
If one is prepared to accept a measure of compromise, the fact is that the Bachmann coaches could form the basis for a Victorian carriage of almost any railway.
How about a range of etched brass side/end overlays (following the example of 'Comet' in 4mm scale)?
The 'low arc' roof could also be replaced with an elliptical or other profile for certain railways.
I think this subject has now 'wandered' away from the 'wagon' board topic heading under which the original post was made by Mike and that any future posts on carriages should be started as a new thread on the 'Carriages' board under an appropriate topic heading.
This thread is left open for updates on Mike's project to 'kit bash' a 7-plank open.
Regards,
John.
Thanks John (and Ian). My troublesome truck is in the post to me at just £36 plus postage, so I look forward to examining it in detail.
Mike
Awaiting your assessment with interest , Mike.
Back2Bay6 are currently advertising 2 trucks for £65 incl postage.
Anyone know any G-scalers who might want a load of redundant wheelsets??
Andy
Back2bay6 are also selling coaches for £35 each....and there's an interior kit for £9.50....!
They say that if something seems too cheap it probably is, but it seems I don't learn.
I ordered my Troublesome Truck from Dragon G-Scale's web site, partly because I'd heard of them so assumed they were OK. Over a week later it hasn't arrived, they are not answering the phone and have not replied to my chasing e-mail. As they are mainly G-Scale people about which I know nothing, does anyone know of this outfit, please?
Mike
I have ordered stuff from Dragon in the past and have to admit, I have had no probs at all. They are always competitively priced and delivery is spot on usually. I may have an alternative route into them and would be happy to enquire on your behalf in my capacity as Garden Rail Columnist (without wishing to interfere) if that helps and expedites the situation.
Regards,
Markie
Thanks Markie. After very many (c20) attempts they have just answered the phone! Very friendly, apologetic and had a plausible explanation re. web site errors. With luck it will be here in the morning and if so I'd be happy to use them again.
Mike
Well, Dragon G-Scale were extremely apologetic and my Troublesome Truck arrived today. Initial observations:
Body.
Length 16ft 2.5in OK
Width 7ft 4.25" OK
Side height (outside over curb rail) 60mm OK (inside) 57mm. That means the floor is lower than it should be, but I doubt anyone would spot that.
External detail is excellent and correct for RCH 1923 designs. Even the odd bolt heads on the side are for the end door catches are in the right place and with a fine representation of a safety chain.
The Side and end thickness is about right - if anything slightly too thin.
If there is any criticism the door catches and hinges are a little flat, but that's being very fussy indeed.
Internal detail is just board marks - nothing else.
It is extremely sturdy and much stronger than normal resin or plastic kits.
To my delight the face on one end prised off leaving just a little glue to scrape away, and revealing all the hidden end door detail!
Underframe.
Channel solebars are good and well detailed. Headstocks are plain.
Buffers are not bad, but for G-Scale are at 60mm centres. I doubt they will come off undamaged, so complete new buffers wiull be needed. They can then be sprung which will be much better anyway.
Hornguides, springs and axleboxes are reasonable, though again a bit thin.
Wheelbase is a scale 9ft 3in which is a bit odd and not a standard.
Draw hook is quite nice but there's no hole for the chain and being plastic it may be best to cut it off and make a new one.
Brakegear is rudimentary but probably acceptable on a garden line.
The solebars need to be widened by perhaps 6mm in order to get Gauge 3 wheels in. That will mean cutting the moulded underframe into three parts.
However, buffer height is 42mm, which is a scale 5in too low. Some of that is due to the wheels which are scale 2ft 9 3/4in instead of 3ft 1in (pity as they are really nice wheels and in some ways better than Slaters) and partly because the axle is not in the centre of the axlebox. Metal bearing are provided so the axleguards are dummy anyway. Correct wheels would help the height, but probably foul the brake blocks which are quite close to the small wheels.
As a means of quickly and cheaply getting a quantity of wagons I reckon new buffers, couplings and a new axle bearing unit might be all that's required. The axle bearing unit may be something the Society can have made in bulk.
For a more scale conversion it would be better to also fit new axleguards, wheels and brakegear. The brake lever is moulded into the solebar so will need some cutting away. Those parts will take the cost up to near the price of a quality kit, but when done it should be as good as a wagon made from a quality kit.
Either way its worth doing in my opinion.
Mike
For the parts mentioned above. With a steel solebar and the wider two top planks this is really a 1923 design, so most wagons would have buffers with rectangluar bases and four ribs. Axleboxes should be of the split type with a horizontal join in the casting.
Chris Barron's cast brass axleguards should do the job. My WilliamsModels steel W irons and whitemetal springs would be easier to fit, but I don't have the correct axleboxes.
Not sure who makes suitable buffer guides?
Brakes from several sources would do, depending how fussy you are: both GRS and my own WilliamsModels are certainly suitable.
Mike
If anyone cares to look at Bachmann's American site - which is where this range was developed - you can see what is planned for release soon:
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/index.php
Note it includes wagons without faces and a tank wagon. Apparently they are selling very well and Bachmann UK has sold out at present.
Mike
I'll write up my Troublesome Truck for the Newsletter, but here's a picture of it this evening. Just buffers, couplings, brakes and painting to do.
Mike
Mike,
Having said that you were impressed by the original Bachmann wheels, are they near enough to our G3 standard profile to be put on new axles, and are they solid or spoked?
Just wondering if they might suitable for a traction / implement wagon, such as the attached drawing - MR ones originally had 2' 8 1/2" wheels.
Any chance of a picture of the removed wheels with comments as to their re-usability?
Andy
Just to avoid confusion - the 'D' number shown on the drawing above is not the MR diagram number, it just a reference number within the Midland C&W drawing collection.
10 wagons were built to this drawing, and allocated to Diagram 730.
Andy
Useful idea, Andy.
I have had a GER lowmac wagon (LNER Mac K) on the drawing board for 6 years but require 2'8" solid-spoked wheels.
John.
Mike W has written an article for the September G3 Newsletter on his Bachmann wagon conversion. He states that the wheels are undersized for RCH (3' 1") at a scale 2 foot 9 3/4 inch, which I assume to mean a 38mm diameter wheel.
I had the chance to examine Mark P's re-gauged Bachmann coaches at the Tenterden GTG yesterday (which was very well attended BTW). Although I didn't actually measure the wheels, I did take some photos and they have ten spokes. I suspect Bachmann may have used the same wheels for both wagons and coaches, it would be cost effective to do so ... but anyone know for sure?
Andy,
The wagon wheels measure (with a rule) 39mm and have eight solid spokes. They look to be cast mazak and bright plated. The profile appears by eye to match the latest Gauge 3 Society standards - i.e. same as Slaters. The axles are not shouldered but the insulated bush at the hub is a tight fit on the axle. In fact the wheels are a much tighter fit than are Slaters which I often have to glue in place after aligning the spokes of both wheels.
If that sounds promising I'll pop them in the post to you for proper evaluation?
Mike
Photis of Bachmann wheels
Mike kindly passed on the Bachmann wheels to me for closer scrutiny, so I set about them with a vernier - apologies for the time it has taken me to post the results here.
Diameter at the tread centre is 39.8mm - a scale 35.4 inches or near enough 2' 11 1/2"
(The diameter at the tread edge is 39.55mm)
Diameter over flanges is 44.7mm, giving a flange height of 2.45mm - this compares to 2.35mm on Slaters wheels.
Width at 7.0mm and axle at 4.0 mm both match Slaters.
Due to supply struggling to keep up with demand for the Bachmann Thomas range, apparently these wheels won't be available as spares for the forseeable future.
As it has turned out, they are too big for my planned MR models (and John's GE Lowmac), so with Mike's blessing I'll happily pass them on again to anyone who has a use for some just sub-3ft wheels.
Andy
Andy,
I note that GRS list a 2ft 9in Mansell wheel, which I assume to be of Slaters origin. As I understood David White's talk at Derby recently, he should be able to make a new centre to mould into that tyre relatively cheaply. Might solve your problem?
Mike
Mike,
I thought you were in the email discussion with myself and John C when he suggested using those wheels?
David was still looking for a commitment on 50 sets (pairs of axles) of wheels, so will need to talk with other G3 kit suppliers to see if they think they might commit to some for another small-wheeled wagon.
Andy
hello from a newby!
Im wondering has anyone done one of these conversions using the existing chassis? Guessing its a case of making a wee bit wider and re using the folded up axle boxes. Just trying one on a budget. ;)
Simon.
Simon,
Firstly, welcome to the forum.
I've got 2 Troublesome Trucks awaiting gauge widening (got them at a very good price whilst on a recent trip to the US) - I'm also aiming for the 'budget' option on the first one at least.
So whilst I can't offer a 'this is how I did it' today, I 'd be happy to share any ideas before putting any parts on the operating table!
Diameter-wise, the wheels are fine to represent worn 3'1" - just the tyres are a bit thick. And the axle height (set by the folded steel bracket) is clearly wrong compared to the moulded axlebox centre - so that may be solved with a bit of packing.
Andy
Hi Simon and welcome to the Forum.
I've not tried it, but am sure it could be done, depending how fussy you are. You need to widen the gauge and you need to increase the buffer height.
The "axleguards" are not bad representations, but too close together in that the re-gauged wheels won't fit, so you either have to cut them off and somehow stick them back again, or cut the whole chasss down the centre and widen the whole thing, which is actually a very easy job.
The L shaped steel axle supports need to be deeper, or located in a different way so they hang down lower, in order for the buffers to match other Gauge 3 stock. My preference would be to make new ones, possibly U shaped in pairs, and with bearings, rather than the machine-made dents which pass as bearings. If you chose to replace the wheels with Slaters, that helps with the buffer height anyway and they come with brass bearings. As its not sprung or compensated you'd need to take care to get all the wheels on the track, but that's not difficult - just takes care.
And then the brake gear, which again is not a bad representation, is between the wheels instead of outside (due to having widened the gauge), and the blocks about half an inch away from the wheels. I can't see any way to alter this, so suggest you cut it off completely and make your own or buy some - GRS is probably the cheapest.
You will need to replace the coupling hook.
All that would be cheap, relatively easy and the wagon would doubtless run well. The only reason I went further is that the body moulding is so nice I thought it deserved nice other bits to match.
Mike
Hi all I was at John Tomlinsons yesterday and he showed me a troublesome truck that he had converted complete with a simple compensation unit and sprung buffers. He had divided the chassis length ways down the middle and spread it out and braced it. It was still in original grey colour minus face and it ran really well. John estimates it cost him £50.00 to buy the wagon and convert. I wont go into too much detail but suffice to say it was a superb effort and I look forward to seeing the wagon painted and dirtied up.
Apparently my article on a Gauge 3 conversion for Bachmann trucks is in the latest Model Rail magazine (May 2011). Not quite sure how it got there, but its all publicity for Gauge 3.
Mike
Managed to find the magazine and its not an article, just a letter and photo sent in so long ago (11 months?) that I'd forgottten all about it. Sorry.
Mike
Quote from: MikeWilliams on Jun 02 2010 21:29
I'll write up my Troublesome Truck for the Newsletter, but here's a picture of it this evening. Just buffers, couplings, brakes and painting to do.
http://g3forum.org.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=327.0;attach=154
Mike
I've seen the odd pic elsewhere splitting the chassis unit down the middle and widening it out for G3 wheel sets/moving out the TT wheels to the very limit of the provided axles but was wondering if there are any in depth articles on converting these? I know the RCH wagons had all sorts of permutations but i'm not particularly versed on any of the various era incarnations (any particular books worth buying?). As helpfully pointed out they're based on the 1923 design but i'm struggling with the frames. Bachmann for some reason traded the steel bufferbeams for wooden style when blowing up the old OO tooling but I can't actually find a real life example of the steel frame type. The above photo seems to simply show a substituted L unit (Evergreen?) cut to diagonals on the ends and I presume corner strapping as been added between it and the still original I beams but it's too blurry to study, could you provide a few alternative shots please?
Lastly concerning the interior area the hinge bar looks like it should be tucked just behind the top plank. I've struggled to find a match for this variant so wondering if anyone has a photo/drawing to study for scratch purposes? This 8 planker is close to what I imagine is right for the strapping but am unsure.
(https://i.imgur.com/PjCIdfh.png)
Regards
Sleeper
The internal end door hinge bar is an authentic variation on the more common type which sits on the top of the end door.
From a quick look through a selection of photos, it seems the collieries and coal merchants around the Swansea area were particularly keen on that arrangement but there are plenty of examples from other districts.
If you are specialising in P.O. wagons then the "Private Owner Wagon" series by Bill Hudson / Headstock Publications is very useful, as are the Keith Turton / Lightmoor Press series.
"Private Owner Wagons of the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co.", A.J.Watts / HMRS is another good book with lots of original drawings of the various RCH standard specifications/designs.
Steel underframes with timber bodies are very rare on RCH coal wagons but not unknown... but I cannot quote an example without some research.
Regards,
John.
for those who did not read the magazine -
Bachmann's re-visited
The first thing I do is remove the couplers and the faces (you can sell these for good price to re-coup some of your outlay)
I then remove the body and put the screws safe. I cut the t ribs off one end(see pic) ,as when you put a new buffer beam on these will not fit (yes unrealistic but just making an easy job- you could glue the bits onto new beam if you wish)
I then with a Stanley knife slice some of the rib from the underside at the location of the mounts for the wheel bearing irons (see pic)
Next job is remove the bearing mounts and keep the tiny screws safe, drop the wheels out and pull the wheels off the original axles (63.5mm long).
I buy 4mm steel rod from b&q at £2.13 per meter, cut this into new axles apx 85mm long (can do this when trialling re-assembly for best length to suit) and shove the wheels on , tapping each one till you get your desired back to back, they are normally pretty firm and won't need fixing.
The buffers (re-usable I feel) and coupling hooks are lightly super glued into their sockets, I find a swift punch with a cross head screwdriver and hammer from behind, whilst resting on vice, helps them release easily and they can then be pulled out by hand (couplings are a bit too fat to re-use- I intend using Williams).
Next task (but not essential) is to fill in the former holes for buffers, all I do is put sellotape over the buffer beam and using a cocktail stick fill in from behind with epoxy resin (pound shop)
After that's fully dry, using the centre of the coupler loop mount holes as a guide, I take a hacksaw and starting from each end first, saw the who chassis in two. I then also drill new mounting holes 10mm inside the former holes for later re-fitting to the body. You also need to cut the outer bits of each end of the former buffer beam.
I spray the body with primer. Poundland stuff is a darker grey; Wilkinson's gives lighter shade at £3.99 but does go further too!
You can either then make a new buffer beam 10mm deep 100mm wide with holes to suit buffers of your choice or make coupling slot to suit your choice too. I have recently commissioned model engineers laser to produce some readymade beams in steel for this purpose (2.37 each) and have holes for Williams buffers and couplings as well as 2mm holes for attaching to original beam. once your new buffer beam is in place you will have to drill through the holes for the buffers to pass through the original buffer beam.
The next job is re-fit the wheel bearing metals to the two chassis halves; you can sit the wheels with their axles into these, while you line them up and re-screw the two chassis halves back to the body. At this point you now have a gap at the centre of the original buffer beam, so now you want to offer up your new beam (I have used plasticard before and glued into place) if you make the beam with mounting holes you can bolt this in place, making the whole assembly fully removable for adjustment or future re-paints etc.
All that's left is to re-fit the buffers and your coupling hooks and you have a g3 wagon. (I found filing the coupling hook to be a nice fit the most taxing job, you also need to file the edge of the link, so it drops into the gedge on the hook, you then turn it, and so the fatter end of the link is in the gedge.
You can if you wish remove the whole chassis and paint black, if it came with a grey chassis.
I bought my wagons at around £30.00 each, spent apx 6.50 on each on coupling hooks, 45p on axles and say £1.00 on paint, I also managed to recover around £6.00 for the faces and coupler loops, so a finished wagon is still under £35.00, I know these are toy-ish but very robust, ideal for letting the kids touch and keeping your precious stuff out of sight! The conversion can also been easily done totally in a few hours and again may add to the rake of your wagon fleet and encourage new members to learn that gauge 3 can be achieved at a modest price.
Quote from: John Candy on Oct 08 2018 18:59
The internal end door hinge bar is an authentic variation on the more common type which sits on the top of the end door.
From a quick look through a selection of photos, it seems the collieries and coal merchants around the Swansea area were particularly keen on that arrangement but there are plenty of examples from other districts.
If you are specialising in P.O. wagons then the "Private Owner Wagon" series by Bill Hudson / Headstock Publications is very useful, as are the Keith Turton / Lightmoor Press series.
"Private Owner Wagons of the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co.", A.J.Watts / HMRS is another good book with lots of original drawings of the various RCH standard specifications/designs.
Steel underframes with timber bodies are very rare on RCH coal wagons but not unknown... but I cannot quote an example without some research.
I have the more common type you mentioned sold on Williams Models in mind when money and time allow, though i'm not really looking to model them as PO wagons for the most part. Anywho thank you for the recommendation, I do have one or two of the PO wagon series around somewhere which I need to re-find for a flick through, though I was oblivious to the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co title. Splurged too much on wagon books in the last 48 hours so the rest of that series will have to take a backseat but found the latter for a good price on the HMRS site and as I was paying for postage got it along with some of their Journals that have been on the ol' wish list :)
I'll be having a good read over the next few days but the lack of steel frame builds makes the Bachmann product somewhat surprising, guess it's simply a hangover of the old Mainline tooling (doesn't really explain the G gauge bufferbeam change though). Anyway if that's the case I'll look into scratching wooden frames for the majority or possibly Mike's compatible frames as i'll need some other bits from his nifty site anyway.
Cheers John
Ashley
Haven't got much to add as I've not actually converted any of my TT hoard yet but a few useful tips there, will be sure to pop into a B&Q next time i'm passing one. Regarding the buffers I agree that they are quite nice. The plastic heads not so much but the housing can always be drilled out and my experiment with one of Mike's sprung types borrowed from a still unbuilt kit proved a success.
(https://i.imgur.com/KmrngyM.jpg)
Quote from: MikeWilliams on May 11 2011 13:10
Apparently my article on a Gauge 3 conversion for Bachmann trucks is in the latest Model Rail magazine (May 2011). Not quite sure how it got there, but its all publicity for Gauge 3.
Mike
Hi
If anyone is going to bring any converted trucks to Adrian's GTG on Sunday I'd be very interested to see how it was done please or if anyone has trucks for sale even better!
Cheers
Martin
I have some experience of these now, as I've converted 3 of them in the last couple of weeks. I'm just waiting for new steel buffer beams (to provide some strength).
So, if you need some advice, or measurements I can do that if anyone needs it.
I've also altered the axle height so thay look better. I've got pics if I can figure out how to load them.
Its a bit optimistic, though, getting them at £45. The average retail seems to be £79 but ebay prices are usually in the mid 40's. There's quite a lot of competition for them at less than that. Also, be careful searching ebay for them, as the search often ignores the G part and offers loads at £20 or so, until you realise they are 00 or purchased from USA at huge shipping and customs costs.
Cheers, Bruce
When they came out they were cheap enough. However it's now getting to point you may as well get a full proper kit.
I've done one and it looks good if a little narrow. I ended up using a Williams model chassis and ditching the chassis. Think I have two bodies spare of you have a use for them drop me a line.