How about the society funding the production of some correct profile carriage wheels (complete with the 2 small lifting holes) and some 3 hole disc wagon wheels? The only metal ones available at the moment either have an inaccurate profile, treads which are too wide, or both.
Ian,
When you say "metal", do you mean turned from solid, or steel tyres with "plastic" centres? If the latter, and assuming you are right and there are none out there, then maybe you are suggesting that the Society underwrite the setup and tooling costs for Slaters to make them, and then sell them through the shop?
If so, then I understand that since Slaters have a tyre of the correct size, we would only need to guarantee a largish order and they will make them.
Would that satisfy your need?
Mike
I'm thinking about the sort of wheels that the G1'ers have - CNC machined steel (similar to Brandbright) - as done by Keith Cousins former company. The problem is that the Brandbright carriage wheels, for example, have over wide treads (8mm), have the wrong profile, and lack the 2 lifting holes. The GRS 3-hole wagon wheels are the wrong profile and resemble the dished American style wheels but with 3 holes.
Ah, understand!
I guess it needs a number of members to pre-order a batch after it has been costed. The cost would be greatly reduced if you could get somebody to do the CAD work f.o.c., or approach whoever does them in the smaller scales to just up-scale. Could you do that and come back with a price? I guess to widen the market they need to be insulated for 2-rail too?
Mike
I'm happy to produce a CAD profile for a turned wheel - and can probably pull out a genuine LMS or RCH drawing to base the 3-hole wagon wheel on.
I'm not so familiar with carriage wheels - but the CAD bit is easy if someone can provide me with the details.
Andy
Francis Leach has done a drawing of the wheel and axle - I will talk to him
I was intrigued by the 'not dished' comment on 3-hole wagon wheels. I took the attached photo at Tenterden earlier this year and the 3-hole wheels on display do look dished. If anyone wants a full size photo (the 100k limit here does not show it up too well), please let me know.
Regards, Ted
Nice photo of a Mansell wheel too Ted. Took me a second to notice the 3-holers behind them.
Just out of interest - I have a set of castings for Mansell wheels but I don't know who originally made them (and unfortunately I cannot remember where I obtained them from in the first place). I doubt they are still available - but does anyone recall these being available in the past?
Well, I met Tim C (our illustrious former Chairman) at Bordon this afternoon and he has confidently predicted that if I go down to my shed and closely examine the back of my Mansell castings, that I will find the word "Bond's" thereon!
I've just got back and I haven't checked the actual items as yet (I have everything in my shed - if only I could actually find it!) but I have cast a beady eye over my old Bonds catalogues. My oldest one is 1947 and they were not mentioned in there, so I looked at the photocopy I have of the parts list for my Bonds Atlantic (taken from a 1930's one I think) and sure enough there they were;
"Half-inch rolling stock parts - Coach Wheels, two iron Mansell wheels mounte don a steel axle - 1/10"
Funny how you forget these things but my first mental 'conversion' was to one pound and ten pence - until it dawned on me (e.g. I remembered) that it was actually one shilling and ten pennies (about nine new pence). Times do change don't they...
Alan Headech also made cast iron Mansell wheels.
Mike
In which case (unlike Bond's) they may still be available from the 2 1/2" Association. I've had quick a look at their (old) website where they list Alan's castings but I cannnot see the Mansells there. I'll ask Des next time I bump into him.
Of course, since Tim and myself only have four axles between us, we could always build a bogie and half-a-carriage each and find some way to hook them up at GTG's!
Modular carriage building anyone? :D
Regards,
IanT
Ian,
I am surprised to see that, as you say, Mansell wheels are not listed on Alan's old web page. He did however sell me six about three years ago, so I know they exist!
Mike
While we're on the subject, the other photo I took at Tenterden shows the back of a Mansell wheel. Note the cables connecting the rim to the centre, presumably for track-circuiting purposes - or were they to prevent static build-up? Were they a feature when the wheels were new, or added later?
I'll need to look up the cast name in more detail next time we go to Adrian Booth's line in Tenterden. The visible part of the name on the rear of the hub says "& Axletree Co 1884".
Ted
Hi Ted,
The wire is for track circuiting and was usually added later. On Wolverton wheels each segment was stamped with a weight, so that when building the wheel matched weights were placed opposite each other. They still needed to add separate balance weights, but less than would otherwise be the case.
I'm personally saddened that many preserved railways remove Mansell wheels in favour of more modern steel ones. Drawgear also is routinely replaced by some railways with BR standard, because they are standard and stronger. Model builders beware when researching at preserved lines.
Mike
Also, the Patent Shaft and Axletree Company was based at Wednesbury. There is a wide range of their products on display at the BlackCountry Museum. The museum has very little of railway interest but highly recommended anyway.
Mike
Returning to the original thread (my apologies for dragging it off at a tangent) - I've just had a 'package' of stuff from Richard Toplis for an advert for the December Newsletter.
I've not looked at the CD supplied yet but amongst the photos there is one of two types of wagon & carriage wheels (pairs on axle) and these are described as;
"3' 9" (50.5mm dia) stainless steel wheels, 10 spoke or disc with spigot/axle for wagon & coaches".
They are priced at 32 pounds per pair. The 'disc' wheel has the two lifting holes mentioned by Ian earlier. Details will be in the December Newsletter - but this may address part of the problem originally raised.
Regards,
IanT
3ft 9ins seems an unusual choice of wheel size.
Any indication of what prototypes they may suit?
I thought majority of carriage wheels were in the region of 3ft 7ins, give or take a bit.
Is that 32GBP per pair of wheels on a single axle or for 4 wheels on 2 axles?
John.
That's 32 GBP per axle John - and I've still not got around to looking at the CD as yet.
Blimey.....that's 128GBP just for the wheels on a bogie vehicle!
Think I'll stick with Slaters at circa 20GBP for 4 axles.
John.
Trainvain,
You seem to have started this thread and also have the answer with Francis Leach. Any success?
Mike
Have tried to contact him but apparently he's renovating a bungalow! He has already done drawings though for another project, so don't think there would be a problem. Will report back.
Looking back at this thread, six years ago there was interest in having 3-hole wagon wheels produced by CNC turning from solid steel bar.
Ian was sourcing a drawing and Andy offered to do a new one.
Did anything more happen? The availability of well made steel wheels correctly shaped and detailed would I think help promote our scale.
Mike
Mike,
No drawing ever came my way - and to be honest I had forgotten about the whole discussion!
However, I have today made an inquiry to get hold of the wheel drawing for Mk1 carriages. I also have a manufacturer in mind who I have spoken to previously and said they would be interested in doing some G3 parts.
Will report back asap - but have a holiday, return to work and a funeral all in the next 3 weeks, so don't hold your breath!
Andy
Perhaps someone should ask the new Brandbright management if they are going to reintroduce the steel wheels they used to sell ?
Looking at the site none of their own brand wheels are in stock yet, I heard when they retired so did the supplier. Worth asking and perhaps see if they would look at doing the gauge 3 range again.
I suspect at the moment they will concentrate on introducing the best sellers first, and I imagine that's a big task.
Simon.
Step 1 achieved - I now have BR carriage wheel drawings!
2 questions for those who might be interested in actually purchasing some wheels:
1) Insulated or uninsulated?
How many people are running 2-R electric propulsion in G3?
Uninsulated wheels should be cheaper and have better control of run-out - and are fine for steam / battery propulsion.
2) Profiled on the back as well as the front face?
I would estimate that wheels that are profiled on both faces could cost up to twice that of those with only one profiled face (due to second machining operation and tricky work holding. How many people would potentially be prepared to pay a premium for the extra profile (let's assume a 'base' price similar to those from a well-known Derbyshire manufacturer to start with)?
Once I have some feedback on the above, I'll start talking to potential suppliers.
Andy
Hi Andy
To answer your questions:
1. Uninsulated please for the reasons you state (same as Brandbright)
2. Profiled on back as well would be good, but to keep price down, the profile could be flat - i.e. a flat even cut between the tyre and the hub if you follow me. Also, the 2 small lifting holes.
Would also be useful to consider a cast whitemetal insert to turn them into Mansell wheels. I have such an insert but no idea where it came from - possibly Walsall or Brandbright? But this could be done later.
cheers
Ian
Ian,
Do you have a reference for the 2 lifting holes (to which you have referred several times)?
The drawings I have are:
SC/DN 21037 - originally dated 1955 "Wheel and axle for roller bearing axleboxes for Steam Stock Vehicles". This shows 4 holes, 2" dia on 1' 1-1/4" radius. 3'-6" diameter on tread.
SC/SW/1 - Originally dated 1949 "Carriage Wheel and Axle 9" x 4 5/8" Journals". This shows no holes. 3'6" diameter on tread. Wheel section profile is the same as the above drawing.
SC/SW/23 - Originally dated 1949 "Carriage Wheel and Axle 10" x 5" Journals". This shows no holes, but has a revision note dated 1969 saying '2" diameter holes in wheel centre deleted'. I cannot tell how many holes it had originally. 3'6" diameter on tread. Wheel section profile is slightly different to the above 2 drawings.
SC/SW/51 - Originally dated 1950 "Carriage Wheel Centre 10" x 5" Journals. This is the same profile as SC/SW/23, and shows 4 holes, same diameter and radius as on SC/DN 21037.
SC/ES 14036 - originally dated 1964 "Markings on Carriage Wheels and Axles". This shows 2 holes, but they are not dimensioned as the drawing is to show markings only.
Given the variation, it might be best to supply them plain and people can drill their own 2- or 4-holes of they wish - it would only need a very simple jig to be made.
Andy
Andy
I have no reference I can find just now but you're right, a simple jig would suffice
Ian
Had a reply back from my 'expert' source:
"I was told they were introduced along with (some but apparently not all) tyre turning lathes in main works specifically those that required a hole for a drive dog that turned the wheel whilst cutting the finished tyre profile. Certainly, they were no longer to be supplied on new carriage wheel centres from circa 1968 - I assume most of the "drive dog" lathes had gone by then - but the decision to abandon them altogether was as a result of BR dynamically balancing the wheelsets (judging by the date) for the introduction of high-speed running - the works were finding that in some instances getting the wheel in balance meant fitting a balance weight just where one of the 2" holes happened to be!"
So we'll go with no holes, and people can add their own if they like.
Andy
You asked, so:-
Design done.
Supplier approached.
Prices received.
The spec:
- Scale 3'-6" carriage wheels
- Turned from steel, with outer face to BR curved profile
- 6.8mm wide tyre with 2mm high flange
- Uninsulated
- 4mm journals (No bearings - use brass axleboxes, or miniature roller bearings to your choice)
- Chemically blackened finish
Indicative price per wheelsets (2 wheels on axle) GBP13.50 - based on a batch of 50 wheelsets.
If we can get sufficient commitment for 100 wheelsets, price reduces to around GBP11.50 per wheelset.
No plastic and no mouldings, so minimum runout assured.
Ready blackened, so no rust to remove or spending time painting or blackening yourself.
Is there enough interest to order a batch?
Please let me know by posting here, sending me a pm, email or phone.
Sorry that we won't be able to discuss at Biggleswade!
Andy
Andy,
Unfortunately for you, this has come at a time when other posts will knock yours off the top of the forum list! That's one reason for this reply. Another is that this great initiative deserves to be supported, so I'll take some - exactly how many we can discuss when a few more people come forward.
Mike
Andy, I'll take a dozen please.
Cheers, Tim
I think I'll stick to the choice of 4 types of coach wheels, insulated, two axles (4 wheels) for £14.44 from that bloke in Derbyshire.
Richard, I couldn't find anything at 3'6" for coaches last time I looked?
I know they are cheap, but I do like the weight of steel wheels. I have also spent a lot of time making them up on my own lathe, which is completely untenable financially, unless I was working at the Polish minimum wage!
Cheers, Tim
2" EN1a mild steel - 10" about £18 (excluding P&P - from eBay) - maybe 8 wheel sets, although it's hard to part off from a stub end, so maybe not quite that many.... Eight RTR axle sets cost £108 (@ £13.50) - maybe less if higher volumes ordered...
I'd guess about 3-4 hours just for the lathe work required. To save £90?. Well, yes maybe it would be worth it to some (although I haven't costed/included the axle material or 'blacking' ...)
However, for most folk here, that sounds like a reasonable deal to me.... :-)
Regards,
IanT
Ian, I think it a good deal too, as in my view you have vastly underestimated the lathe time needed. You also need 2 1/4" bar to make 3'6" wheels, unless you cheat on the sizing!
Yes, maybe Tim.
I just quickly converted 42" to G3 (42"/22.6=1.86") which doesn't leave that much (3.5mm) for the flange etc
Much of the time required would be in changing between the various machine 'set-ups' needed - drilling, facing and parting off the blanks, facing the blank to 'hub' width (4-jaw), setting up a suitable mandrel, then turning the face, rim, tread/flange to size. Multiple parts tend to be relatively quick to do once you have the machine set-up - albeit somewhat boring.
I haven't done an exhaustive time and motion study here - it was just a rough estimate of total time needed and obviously some folk work quicker than others (I'm on the slow side myself). I don't often do extended machining sessions these days either - about an hour or so is my limit. I find I get tired standing at the lathe much more quickly now and then it is easy to start making mistakes. But in my own workshop, I can simply leave things set-up 'as-is' and either go off and do something else for a while or even come back to it another day.
One thing is for sure - a CNC lathe will be faster (and more accurate) than me and won't stop for coffee or rest breaks either...
Regards,
IanT
Andy,
There's a lot of chatter here and I hope that has translated into firm orders for you. Our Editor has been asking for something like this for ages, so suspect he may take the full 50 axles ;)
They are too late for my own period of interest and I don't do many coach kits yet, but I do make the occasional coach bogie for people, so I'll take four axle sets and if it makes up the minimum order numbers would take eight at a push.
I assume those prices are plus VAT?
Mike
IanT, I am also on the slow side, I think it took me around 10 hrs to make a batch of 8 wheels from sliced blanks! That was using my best batch production methods too! Terrible, eh? The axle is, of course, on top of that!
Andy, can I suggest you write a suitable letter for the Newsletter to promote the wheels at these prices? Copy date is a week on Monday.
Regards, Tim
This topic is just slipping off the front page, so here's another post to keep it visible.
Come on chaps - steel wheels like this have been asked for several times. Andy has gone out of his way to find the details and get a quote from someone I happen to know is a first class engineer, and the wheels would be absolutely superb. He deserves our support - and the response from members has been dismal. He needs a minimum order of 50 wheels (just 12 coaches) and we can't even do that between us.
Does nobody want scale profiled, solid steel, blackened coach wheels?
Mike
P.S. I have nothing whatsoever to do with this initiative except a wish to see quality products introduced to the Gauge 3 market - whatever they are and whoever does it.
I have not expressed interest so far as I require insulated wheels with mansell style wooden centres. If the wheelsets were available unmounted I would be much more interested. Maybe six axles.
Apparently Walsall Model Industries have produced a large number of G3 coach wheels similar to the ones Brandbright did and these are available at about £8 an axle I understand.
Ian
Well, I won't be wasting any more of my time in the future on other people's wish lists, that's for sure!
Andy
Quote from: Traininvain on Mar 09 2017 16:09
Apparently Walsall Model Industries have produced a large number of G3 coach wheels similar to the ones Brandbright did and these are available at about £8 an axle I understand.
Ian
Can't see them anywhere on their website. Are you sure they still have them ?
Cheers Ian
I can completely understand how Walsall could make these cheaper than Andy's supplier because Andy's uses a lathe not quite large enough to thread the bar needed through the headstock, and so each wheel blank needs to be cut off and mounted individually to machine.
But, like unklian, I would be interested to know whether Walsall do actually make them and do have them?
Mike
Well Mike, I was offered them last year by Walsall for £7.50 per axle, but went for another supplier instead where the cost was slightly greater but brass bearings included.
Tim
Great, thanks Tim.
Just shows there's a lot for Gauge 3 out there if you look - and I didn't look hard enough!
Mike