Can anyone tell me about the origin of brake vans and, better still, what a first generation brake van might have looked like? I'm interested in modeling New England railroads pre-1850s, and have found evidence that several of them employed brake vans at an early date (Eastern, Boston and Maine, Old Colony, and probably the Boston and Worcester). I assume they borrowed the technology from England, but I know next to nothing about English railways in that early period. John Candy has kindly forwarded to me a very informative article on brake vans by Bob Essery, but, sadly, Mr. Essery indicates that very little is known about the earliest brake vans. Can anyone supply more information?
I should probably explain that the small size of the engines and cars of my chosen era is what attracts me to gauge 3; I'm a afraid I would find gauge 1 too fiddly for live steam models, whereas in gauge 3 a Hinkley 4-4-0 circa 1850 scales out to almost exactly the same size and configuration as a gauge 1 "Dee."
Thanks in advance,
Paul Peterson
Good question Peter.
Some of the earliest railway prints are those by Bury of the Liverpool and Manchetser Railway.
http://www.lancashiregallery.co.uk/4515/14916.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
These don't show brake vans, probably as the guards travelled on the wagons and carriages anyway.
By your period - 1850 - they were however in general use, but goods train brakes and those for use in passenger trains developed quite separately.
Mike
I'm pretty sure that the National Railway Museum http://www.nrm.org.uk/ (http://www.nrm.org.uk/) may be able to help you.
I have a small contemporary sketch of an 1850's British goods train that shows (in rather coarse detail) a side view of a combined 'Guard's Break and Small Parcels Van'. I have never seen a photo of one, but the other wagons sketched do closely resemble known wagon types of this period.
e-mail me and I'll send it to you.
Regards, Ted
Thanks, Mike and Ted,
Yes, Ted, I would be very grateful for a copy of the drawing you mentioned. Er . . . how do I e-mail you? I tried clicking on your name but that just got me an "access denied" message.
Paul Peterson
Hi Paul. If you e-mail the webmaster (the link is under contacts on the home page of this web site), I'm sure he won't mind forwarding your message on to me and then we can correspond (thanks John).
I also have a booklet on the Norris locomotives which may (from memory) include some 19th century scenes - all I have to do now is find it!
Ted
Hi Paul,
I have a set of "Modern Railway Working" (1912) published by Gresham. Each subject area is dealt with by an expert from the Railway Industry at that time. Volume 3 has a section entitled "The Design & Construction of Carriages & Wagons" by S. Warner, who was at that time Carriage and Wagon Superintendent of the London & South West Railway.
He refers to some of "the earliest examples of British Rolling stock" as being those of the Bodmin & Wadebridge Railway. He states "that they are still in preservation at Eastleigh Works" and "that they were still in actual use until 20 years ago" (I guess about 1890!) He also states that scale models of them were to be seen at the South Kensington Museum. I don't know if this is still true or not.
The good news is that there are photographs of the two wagons on the "frontispiece" of Volume 3.
Their vital statistics were as follows;
Built about 1835 for the Bodmin & Wadebridge Railway.
* The "Third Class Brake" - length 10ft, width 6ft, height above rails 5ft 5", wheel base 4ft 6", weight 1 ton 19cwt.
* The "Composite Carriage" - length 14ft, width 6ft 6.5", height above rails 8ft 5", wheel base 7ft 6", weight 3 tons 5cwt.
The B&W Railway was completed in 1836 and was standard gauge although it 'connected' to the rest of the world via the GWR broad gauge. It was therefore effectively isolated until the GWR reduced their gauge.
It's a bit late here tonight - but I'll scan the photos tomorrow and email them to you.
Regards,
Ian T
Hi, Ian,
That is fascinating, especially the small size of the vans in question. While researching early American railway cars I've been struck with how very confining they were, especially in terms of height. I'm currently working on a pair of 4-wheel box cars--perhaps I should say "box vans"--from about 1845, based on an illustration in a railway timetable: my first project in gauge 3. As I drew up the plans, I was surprised to discover that the doorway could not have been much more than 5' high. Looking at the dimensions of the vans you've described, it would seem that they would fit in nicely with my cars.
Many thanks,
Paul
An example of an early brake van of the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway is illustrated in model form here :
http://www.5and9models.co.uk/photos/No-93.jpg
Although there is no date attributed, it is said to be a "Craven" design (Craven was the chief mechanical engineer of the LBSC between 1847 and 1870).
The earliest photos of lines taken around the time of opening (to be found in The Middleton Press series of books, for example) may well show some very early rolling stock from the 1840s and 1850s which would still be in service in the latter years of the 19th Century. I have several of these books and will take a look later.
The Irish railways tended to run their stock into the ground (couldn't afford to replace it), so that may be another source of photos of really ancient vehicles.
Regards,
John.
Paul,
The writings of Henry Henson might help you. c1847-1850s he was in charge of wagons for the Southern Division of the LNWR (the largest railway company at that time). His designs happen to have been chosen by D.K.Clark for his monumental tome "Railway Machinery" of 1855 and Henson also presented drawings to one of the Institutes (from memory the Mechanical Engineers), who published them in their report of his talk. These are mainly goods vehicles. Henson was a pioneer in the use of iron in place of wood, but left the railway after allegations of theft.
Also, the library of Metropolitan Cammel in Birmingham contains some early drawings they inherited from one of the firms they took over - Wrights. These include 1840s carriages and a couple of Brake vans.
I'll try to find out where these are readilly available as scanning prints of them to send will not be easy.
Mike
With respect to the Bodmin & Wadebrige railway carriages, I thought others here might be interested to see the scans from "Modern Railway Working".
If you have this set by the way - they are in Volume 5 (not Volume 3 as I stated earlier).
Regards,
IanT
Mike
I notice your mention of early coaches. I have been attempting to research early Ulster Railway carraiges which I understand where built by a contractor called Wise in Lancashire and delivered for the railways opening in 1839. Would this be part of the Metropolitan Camel archieve.
David
David,
I've not heard that name - sorry. ~It must be possible to find out what happened to them, but I don't know.
Mike
David,
Have you seen the October issue of "Backtrack"?
There is an article on the Ulster Railway between 1836 and 1845.
It relates mainly to the period of confusion leading up to the gauge standard being set at 5ft 3ins but there is mention of the First Class carriages being built by Dunn & Wise of Lancaster and Braby of London.
There is also a drawing captioned "An approximation 0f an Ulster Railway First Class Coach".
The author lists sources including :-
Wishaw's Railways of Great Britain & Ireland (1842)
The Ulster Railway Handbook (1848)
Regards,
John.
P.S. Have just noticed Ulster Railway listed as customer of Joseph Wright & Sons, Brown Marshalls & Co Ltd and Oldbury Railway Carriage & Wagon Co Ltd (all Metro-Cammell constituents).
I was able to find the Henson book on line: not all plates were available, but luckily the LNW brake van was one of them! It and the drawing that Ted found have some similarities--and raise some questions.
First, both cars have an open section at one end and a roofed section at the other, with the brake controls in the open bit. The fact that they were asymetrical causes me to wonder whether there was a preferred "front" and "back" end, and if so, which was which?
In both cases the roofed section is extremely low. In the LNW van this section looks to be a shelter for the guard (there appear to be bench seats in it), but one would have to crouch low to get in there. In Ted's drawing the roofed section is a "small parcels van" but even so I would have thought the low roof would have made it difficult to load and unload. So . . . why such low roofs? Did this enable the guard to see over that end of the car so that he would have a clear view of the rest of the train?
Sorry if these are obvious questions--and thanks again to all who have offered help.
Paul
Paul,
I believe it was preferred that the open end be at the rear, but that was not always the case. Indeed with most British branch lines that could not be the case in both directions.
Vans and also carriages were indeed low in those days. They seemed to work on the assumption that except briefly whilst getting on and off, you would be sitting down. First Class carriages were higher to give room for top hats. The three or four grounded bodies I've studies from pre-1870 were all low and not possible to stand upright at the sides.
Converesely, I've never understood why the average 1930s-1960s carriages were so high - why do you need about 8ft above floor level in the centre?
Mike
People were also of course noticeably shorter in those days. Poor diet I guess.
Just look at the doors and ceilings in many older properties and even I sometimes have to duck. Both my sons and all of their friends are over six foot and would have been regarded as very big men even a century ago, whereas now it is more the norm. Of course we are also quite a bit 'wider' than before too!
Regards,
IanT
Why were the ceilings 8ft above floor level? Try standing with your titfer (everyone wore hats until the 1950's) next to an oil lamp 6ft above the floor! Apart from the risk of being singed, you block out the light from those around you. ;)
John
Many thanks for the information. I do not normally take Backtrack but I will hunt Octobers one down. I have copies of both Wishaw and the Ulster Railway handbook plus a drawing of No 33 (1863) which I have drawn from the original body now in our yard at Downpatrick. I'm doing some research so that we can start restoration in the next couple of years.
David
Hello All
Regarding the height of early vehicles , I belive the population was considerably shorter in the Victorian times . Am I right in cross referencing this to cottage doorways and ceiling heights?
John