BR Diesel Class 44/45/46 Loco Design Co.

[454]

I have found that sound in the garden is good competition with the neighbours hedge trimmer, lawn mower & chain saw. Once they are deployed the diesel sound is useless as the back ground noise of angle grinders & hammers with DIY'ers also competes. In side the house & at exhibitions it is a novelty bordering on distraction to the extent can be very repetitive, wearing & unpopular. Don't matter how good it is, try wacking up the sound when SWMBO is watching Corrie. Blitz & WW3.

Stealth is the way to go for peace & harmony.

Dave
454

[Geoff Nicholls]

could we have a step by step guide to adding sound to a revolution receiver please? I've used one to control my GRS 08, and having seen and heard the real thing dragging locos around at Didcot, I'd like to add sound to it.

[blagdon]

Hi Doddy and welcome to our weird whole of loonies. As a member of the 'Baby Boomer' generation, 'Peaks', Deltics and 'Mechanical Farts (DMU's) are my nostalgia. Its good to see you chaps building these classic diesels; your clips of 50019 were pure joy!

Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate

[Doddy]

could we have a step by step guide to adding sound to a revolution receiver please? I've used one to control my GRS 08, and having seen and heard the real thing dragging locos around at Didcot, I'd like to add sound to it.

I am afraid adding sound to the Revolution is not quite that simple, I have gone through god knows how many permutations of technology interface ideas for the Revolution before adopting a 'sound before movement' scheme which requires additional electronics to be added between the Revolution receiver and the sound card. That electronics pack will be developed over the forthcoming weeks and maybe months. And may not even fit within the tight constraints of a Class 08 resin bodyshell.

Most (read all) commercial decoders that operate on DC operate the other way around. I.e. the receiver has to output a motor voltage and when there is enough DC power to operate the sound card then you get the sound following the motion - all very wrong in my mind (see my note below *). If you are looking at Zimo products then try Digitrains, for Loksound products try Legomanbiffo at DC kits.

Or if you can wait... but you may have to compromise and need a brake van permanently coupled to the 08 in order take onboard some of the electronics to run the 08 properly - or at least properly to my mind.

* The Peak will have nine different profiles for acceleration and deceleration linked to their associated maximum speeds just like the post 1965 RCH Headcode descriptions. The reason for that is that I can then apportion different sound sample sets for each RCH profile so that a thrashing engine is not used when light engine around the yard (or in our case a small garden) and does not idle at full line speed.

Also each sample set for each RCH description will switch in and out the various ancillary components like Air Compressors when in direct air brake  mode and switch in the extra sounds of Vacuum compressors when pulling vacuum braked stock.

The output of my electronics will also allow braking sounds to be issued from the MkI and MkIIB/C coaching stock in synch with the locomotive, I'll be recording a full set of sounds for the MkI and some GWR coaching stock later this year. With the sound card I have other sounds like door slam, guards whistles, station announcements etc... can all be added to suit.

I totally concur with Daves view that the sounds should be stealthy and not strident, I am a member of the Layout Sound Group and personally believe that the engine sounds should be in proportion the background sounds and that in real life you cannot hear a loco ticking over from a mile away, but can hear it just across a large car park like the GWR's in Toddington, the scale model should have scale sound to match and not be obtrusive.

I also agree with repetitive and annoying sounds, but that has always been down to lack of memory on the sound cards, building small irritating loops for everything instead of playing full length samples I.e. compressor cycles, engine idle sequences, engine running sequences, whistles etc. Well with the samplers card I have access to 999 samples and they can be any length I like as the memory card on the sampler has Gigabytes of storage. so no restrictions like commercial products.

When I get this new kit all up and running I'll post a separate thread especially for sound.

[Doddy]

"Also each sample set for each RCH description will switch in and out the various ancillary components like Air Compressors when in direct air brake  mode and switch in the extra sounds of Vacuum compressors when pulling vacuum braked stock. "

Typo 'Vacuum Compressors' Oops should have been - Vacuum Exhausters!

[454]

Doddy
Thought of a great idea with loco sound which will not disturb unbelievers.

Switch the sound output to a Bluetooth (on loco) transmitter & deselect the output to loudspeaker.
If those who have a Bluetooth phone earpiece tune in they can hear the loco sound in complete privacy & enjoy the experience. Those who cannot will therefore never know & will live in complete ignorance. The volume can be whatever is desired so no-one will be disturbed or even bored. Guess HiFi Bluetooth headsets could be the way to go, when SWMBO is watching her fave telly programme, one can play trains in complete peace. Harmony is maintained.

Dave
454

[cabbage]

Before my eyes completely cease to function.....

I have been busy today building Ixion and I am well into the final assembly of the cut pieces. Here you can see that parts are glued and nailed together. Side "A" has been glued into position. The other side can await the  new day!



The rubber joint pivots have been fitted and I have had a go at producing the girder structure inside the loco with girder section of plastruct. The mesh has been nailed (YES!) into place while I construct the frame to sandwich it to the body.

regards

ralph

[Doddy]

WOW!  Keep the photos coming Ralph.

I have never built locomotive bodyshells and find these photos to be very informative. Thanks!

[454]

Kinder Scout Update:

It has been a while since the last update on Kinder Scout progress.

This Class 44 diesel has in every sense of the word been an experimental vehicle being used as a testbed for various techniques.

The following reference would be useful to anyone wishing to understand the 1-Co bogie:
Reference *: "Bulleid of the Southern" by H.A.V. Bulleid. Ian Allan 1977 Chapter 12 (Electrics & Diesels) Page 91
Wish I had read this before I ever got started.

1) There has been a lengthy debate about the pony truck on the 1-Co bogie. The Chris Barron design has a parallel plate frame bogie with cross stretchers, but at the pony truck end the width between the frames on the prototype joggles outboard to create a more generous space to accommodate the mechanism & swing of the pony truck. My feeling is that if this was to be incorporated into the model the axle stub ends could be retained & the loco would have a fighting chance of travelling on tighter radii curved track.

As a result I have tested 6 versions of the pony truck mounted in standard parallel framed bogie and this is what I have found:

version 1
The original Chris Barron design as drawn to a design relating to a Bissel truck with a pivot.
Verdict: unsatisfactory, bounces on uneven track & derails when negotiating from straight to curving transitions, due in the main to the fouling of the stub axle when attempting 8 feet radii curves. Solution hack saw off stub axle ends.

version 2
As version 1 but with the stub axle ends sawn off.
Verdict: better at negotiating tighter radii curves without binding. The existing problem of bouncing remains.

Version 3
As version 2 but with a downforce sprung piston to keep the truck from bouncing.
Verdict: better than version 2 but derails on transition from straight to curve & vice versa.

Version 4
As version 3 but with side control springs.
Verdict: better than version 3 but not perfect.

Version 5
Removal of side control springs. Removal of downforce piston. The fitting of a thick brass plate bent in a hook & placed as a up/down limiter above & below the bogie body stretcher. This prevent excessive wheel drop & climb. In addition 2 split pins were inserted into the buffer beam in a position behind the dummy suspension covers. These 2 split pins act as retainers for 2 coil springs attached to the forward edge of the pony truck. The springs simulate the levers on the original prototype Bulleid design but retaining the Bissel pivot action.

Verdict: Takes facing & trailing curved points at high speed without derailments. Solution found.

Sadly Chris Barron should have incorporated the trapezoidal suspension in his original design & not resorted to the Bissel truck, but fortunately a drawing was eventually acquired courtesy of Gerald Chandler of the 2.5inch gauge association of the actual suspension of the original 1-Co bogie of the Ashford built BR(S) 10200 diesel type. I am happy to report that one bogie was modified to bring into the frames a trapezoidal linkage together with the deletion of the Bissel pivot action for Version 6.

Version 6
See ref *
The removal of the Bissel pivot completely. The cutting of the upper pony truck plate & the drilling of holes should the Bissel need to be restored. These holes are used for side control spring retention. The design of the trapezoidal linkage involved making a card model & drawing pins as pivots. From this the links were cut from BMS rectangular section & pivoted from the bogie on 8 BA steel bolts. The links were secured pivotable using 8 BA bolts to 6mm brass angle support features screwed with 10 BA screws to the buffer beam rear approx position behind the dummy suspension  covers. The geometry was such that the angle of attachment to the buffer beam was in a line with the centre of the leading driving axle. The pivot on the pony truck was drilled accordingly.

My version is a simplified version using the upper pair rather than an upper & lower pair.
Also using simple sloppy pivots rather than sophisticated ball joints which will be the way to go for the later creations.

Verdict: Easy to design & implement. Does not need a lathe to turn pivot bushes & pivot pin bearings. On the track it follows & hugs track imperfections accurately. A downforce spring has been incorporated to keep the truck pressed onto the track.

2) Power supply

The motors are 12volt geared 4:1 devices driving into spur gears. Driving on 14.4 volt NiMH was the starting point for the power installation. The performance has been report earlier.

Debate followed whether to use SLA at 12volts or 24volts.

Firstly : Connected bogies in series & traction motors on bogies in parallel 24 volts using SLA. Loco 1kg heavier & performance sluggish & disappointing.

Secondly : Wired SLA's to give 12 volts all motors in parallel. Performance sluggish & disappointing.

Thirdly : Wired it back to NiMH & restored original performance, that I can live with.

Experimentation is now over. The work will give way to detail enhancement rather than making it go better. I think the options have been exhausted bearing in mind the original design remit to use prototypical traction motor arrangement rather than revamped commercial Bo bogies (e.g. LGB etc). Better motors are needed for an effective powerful traction motor.

I am drawing stumps now on this project and await the news of Ralph's Ixion, Tim's Snowdon & the creation by our new recruit Bob. So perhaps the G3S AGM in February may have a table dedicated to the Peak diesel perhaps. I did suggest this in an earlier post.

Over & out & looking forward to hearing about the works of others, hoping that they will continue with this thread.

:-)

Dave
454

[Doddy]

David,

When I first enquired about how many G3 Peak engineering drawings had been sold (and was told dozens), I was rather surprised to see that only three projects were being pursued and you had built the only one shown publicly.

And what a showing! With unwavering generosity you have shared the results of building and testing, that in my mind will encourage more models to be built.

Of course these new builders will have their own agendas and build methods, but the testing you have done (at scale speeds of over 200mph) with this model sets an exemplary standard of sharing knowledge.

When we get the first four Peaks together next year I think the Gold Medal already has a home.

Best regards and thank you for all your help.

[cabbage]

Anyone consulting the "sources" sheet for the plans will find that the horns and springs castings are "available from" Alan Gibbs who doesn't seem to know what has happened to them... So I have been looking around!!! Obviously nothing like that is available -so it is either fabricate them myself out of brass -or accept that a black on black object is not going to be noticeable...

The horn guides that I "think" that I can get away with are the horns belonging to the LBSC 3.5inch gauge locomotive "Doris" and the tender spring looks a good candidate for "butchery" into the required shape!!! Another one is the tender horn/spring assembly from LBSC's "Dyak".

I have ordered the sheet metal work for the loco from M.E.L and he says to expect delivery in circa two weeks time. This is bar far the easiest model I have yet constructed but I am finding it infuriating that simple things just cannot be found.

Ignoring the inaccuracies of the plans (wheel size and wheel base for starters..) It has the air of being a good garden railway loco rather than an exact model. Of the three models under construction (Dave has finished his) they all have differing "owners viewpoints" on how things should be done. I am having 12 small DC motors, Tim is having two large DC motors -Robert (I think) could be contemplating 6 AC motors.

I have decided to build mine with "correct" size wheels at a scale 3 feet and 3 feet 9 inches (40mm and 50.5mm). This will give me a drive ratio of 1:5 on each wheel with a power of 22Watts. I am not entirely sure how much traction this equates to...

The Maths say that the estimated loco weight (7Kg) should reach the scale 100mph (2mS-1) in just under 6 seconds but how much of this I can really use I do not know.

Anyway -that is the state of play from my Kitchen Sink!!!

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Well I have ordered a hornguide and tender spring casting from GLR. This is going to be my first "official" hornguide as I normally fabricate my own from brass angle. If this turns out "right" (and I think that it will do) then I will have to order the remaining 5 hornblock castings and 11 tender spring castings. 

I have decided to rivet the hornguides to the sides of the frames and to fit a "ribbon strip" along the top of the frames as per the original. This will be tacked into place wiith silver solder then sealed with plumbing solder. The last time that I did riveting was at the  local Gymnasium when I was 12. I made a trowel and fittted the tang to the blade with two rivets. Since then -nothing.... I would appreciate some advice  on sizes and how to go about it. I do remember having to use two types of former for the rivet. But I am not sure of the rivet material required for this operation? Should I use brass rivets for a steel to gunmetal union?

regards

ralph

[IanT]

Hi Ralph,

My choice of rivet size is usually decided by the size of the 'head' I want to achieve - I think I mentioned recently that rivets are normally made with a 2:1 head to shank ratio. So I'd normally work out the head size and go from there. Beyond that is a consideration of the required strength of the joint in question and the number of rivets being used etc.

I don't think the materials being 'joined' need really affect the choice of rivet material (although copper rivets are used for boilers of course) - except where rust might be an issue. Brass rivets are generally easier to 'form' nice heads on, being softer than iron but I normally only use brass rivets for "cosmetic" reasons (and when soldering them in for instance) mainly because of cost. A soft iron rivet should work fine in this application, and if I don't need a 'head', I sometimes use short bits of (soft) iron nail where I can flush file on both sides of the joint. Done well they are almost invisible.

Which brings me to the key point, I'm not sure that some people appreciate that a (cold) rivet mainly works by 'swelling' it within its hole, so a very important thing is to make sure the rivet fits quite tightly in the hole to begin with - you don't want to start with it loose. It also takes a heavy blow to swell it 'throughout' the hole.

A few other things with horn blocks. I drill the first hole and immediately put a bolt through it and do this after each hole is drilled, I leave these in place until replaced by the rivet in that hole. Assuming an external 'head' you will need a suitable 'hold-up' to keep the head 'round' when you bash the other side. Make the hole a very good fit to the rivet shank and use a heavy hammer to swell it- if the frame material is thick enough, then a (very) slight counter sink will help the joint. If you can flush file the inside of the joint then you don't have to worry too much about the shape of the 'head' you are forming on the other side and nor do you want too much rivet material standing proud (about one rivet diameter would be a good guide).

It might be a good idea to get two bits of scrap (mild steel) and join then with two of the rivets you are going to use, it will give you a good idea of what is required. I think you will find two rivets will give you a very firm joint and once you have achieved this, the horn blocks will be less of a worry as you will have a feel for it.  Sorry to ramble on but many of these things are easier to do than to describe. I hope this helps though.

Regards,

IanT

[Traininvain]

Ralph

I have just used the Grange 2.5in gauge hornblock gunmetal castings from GLR in association (horrible sand castings) with 1.5mm mild steel side frames. I used 1/16in copper round headed rivets, 6 per hornlbock. The rivet head sits in the space between the webs of the hornblock and these face inwards on the frames. I countersunk the outside of each of the 1/16in holes drilled through the frames and then used a good hammer and a punch to bash the rivet tight with the head resting in a 1/16in rivet pop secured in a substantial vice. The whole thing is very secure with the rivet swelling into the interference fit hole, and the outer end of the rivet, as Ian T says, swelling into the countersink. Any copper sitting proud of the outside of the frames can be filed or milled flat and there's no need to touch the head on the inside as you can't see it anyway.

Ian

[cabbage]

Does the size of the rivet quoted refer to the size of the head or the diameter of the shank? From what I understand now I need a cup to put the head of the rivet in and to bash a former to produce the other hemispherical head with.

Being a metric kid does anyone know of a source of metric rivets?

Thank you both for your time and information I will now go away and explore eBay!!!

regards

ralph