The Carriage Conundrum.

[John Candy]

As we are all acutely aware, the dire shortage of carriages is the bugbear of G3.
There has even been a "shrinkage" in the available options since GRS no longer sell the GWR "B-set" Brake Compo or the GWR auto trailer kit .

There is a lot of talk in this forum (and in the G3S) about making G3 more attractive but, as a non-member commented to me recently, there is not going to be any great uptake of this gauge in conditions where you can buy a Kingscale Britannia for around 3.5/4K but then need to spend more than that for a decent length rake of carriages to go behind it (and even then only one type of BR Mk1, the corridor 3rd, is available).

On several occasions, I have attempted to "drum up" support for LMS and LNER carriage projects but there has been almost no response.

I am now on the point (in conjunction with at least one other member) of exploring ways of easily producing a low cost (but authentic) set of carriages for "on demand" production (rather than batch production where "dead stock" is a financial burden..... an extension of the "Flexikit" concept).

The initial experiments are to be with GNR Howlden compartment stock and LNER Gresley gangwayed stock and, if successful, other types could follow.

I am not revealing any more details at this stage but will provide periodic updates on progress.

John.

[classicdelights]

John

You are quite right that this is a major factor in getting people interested.  What is needed is the equivalent of the plastic ready to run BR Mk 1 carriages that were produced in gauge 1 by the Gauge 1 Model Company a few years ago.  They sold for £250 a go which people would pay.  I realise that no one is going to tool up to produce gauge 3 coaches in plastic when there is such a small market, but taking the gauge 1 theme, they have been produced in the past as fibre-glass shells that could quite easily be completed by almost anyone and of course there are the very popular Peter Alliott aluminium shells of flush sided stock that can be made into decent coaches, albeit, with some considerable amount of effort.

With so little available my personal view is that any one tackling this problem needs to stick to a universal type of coach that can be used with any locomotive and in whatever region is modelled.  This comes back to the BR Mk 1, it is not surprising that the Gauge 1 Model Company decided on this coach as their prototype.  Anything obscure or with limited usefulness for only some locomotives or areas of interest is going to limit the sales potential.  Stick to the BR Mk 1 and you have quite a number of alternative diagrams that can be produced and they can be painted in a number of liveries to suit almost anyone - it really makes the choice for itself.  The same goes for goods rolling stock in my view, copy what Hornby Dublo produced and everyone can use it.

Thinking of Hornby Dublo, no one seems to have mentioned the new Kingscale Duchess that has appeared on their website.  Unfortunately, they do not seem to be offering Duchess of Montrose but you can have them in 4 different colours.

All the best

Phil Flint

[John Candy]

Phil,

Thanks for your useful input.
If I were to be doing this as a commercial venture, then the BR Mk1 does make a lot of sense.
Problem is, I am wanting carriages for my own use (all my locos are in LMS/LNER/GWR liveries) and my sidekick in the project is only interested in LNER/GNR/GCR stock.
Since Gresley stock lasted into the 1960's, some even got the BR grey/blue "corporate" livery, they would be a suitable train for a "Brit" (or even a Deltic / other diesel loco).

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

Sorry, but I am not convinced that the small range of coach kits available is stopping too many people trying Gauge 3.

There are afterall GRS LNER suburbans, GRS LSWR suburbans, GRS GWR mainline stock, plenty of GRS B-sets an the secondhand market, my LNWR 6-wheelers, I will soon have some other small pre-Grouping coaches and then there are the Walsall GWR 4-wheelers and LNWR 42ft stock seen at exhibitions but not sure they are actually being advertised.  How many different coach kits do you need for a very small market?

But I agree with Phil that a range of BR Mk1s would plug a gap and be suitable for all of the Kingscale locos and many of the GRS ones too.  I know of at least four people who have worked on possible kits for these at one time or another (some being the same kit passed on) so I'll not be touching them, but surely one of these five must come to fruition?  I have seen and even made some parts for them, so they exist.  Some of those four read this forum, so any chance of an update chaps?

Failing that, since the Chinese don't seem to have any morals, their factory might do a batch of Mk1s with different sides for anyone wanting a small batch?  All the hard work has been done by them already.

Perhaps what we need is some positive reporting of these things on the G3S website - tell the world what a great range of kits and parts are out there - far more than for Gauge 1 in many ways.

Mike

[MikeWilliams]

I have been thinking about Phil's suggestion that the Hornby Dublo range is a sound base.  They basically did an open wagon, a covered van and a brake van for each of the big four, plus a few special wagons and some BR.  Carriages followed the same model.

My WilliamsModels range includes open wagons from three of the big four, vans from all four, but only one brake van so far, and a few less common types.  Between them, the Gauge 3 suppliers offer coaches from all four companies plus BR.

And before anyone says that these are older wagons rather than 1930s designs, I quote from another well known railway modelling forum "The UK private owner wagons were roughly 50% of the pre WWII UK wagon fleet."  I have also read (Hudson I think) that at Nationalisation there were more P.O. wagons which had been built to pre-1923 designs than there were built to post-1923 designs.

So, even for a model railway set in the late 1930s with perhaps 20 wagons, 5 should be pre-Grouping coal wagons, 5 post-Grouping coal wagons, maybe 5 company open wagons (two or three of which would be pre-Grouping), one brake van, perhaps three vans (one ventilated) and one special vehicle.  I must stock up with 1887 and 1907 P.O. wagon kits!

I know this is a carriage thread, but I don't have similar figures for carriages.  Does anyone?

Mike

[cabbage]

Upstairs at home I have six LMS 3rd carriages -two complete, two without roofs but with wheels and bogies and two without roofs wheels and bogies... They have proved to be the most difficult things that I have ever built. I can knock up an RCH 1923 wagon in two days and the parts are quick and easy to find. That CANNOT be said about a carriage! I used the Chris Barron plans and spent nearly three months finding a suitable laser cutter for the carriage and brake sides.

I had to modify the plans as I thought the longitudinal side re-enforcements to be very flimsy and the sizes of wood specified very hard to find.

Once this batch of six is finished I then have to make a batch of two more -after that "No Way Jose!" am I building carriages again!!!

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Mike,

If you hadn't been lucky enough to acquire a rake of LNWR corridor stock to go with your Claughton, would you have been happy to have been stuck with either LNWR 6-wheel compartment stock or BR Mk1. stock as a train (the Mk.1 not having appeared until after withdrawal of the last Claughton)?

There are quite a few A3s, some A4s, B17, K1 and various other LNER (and pre-group) locos out there and I am sure their owners would be delighted to have Gresley teak stock to run with them.

My J39 needs an excursion train (as does my LMS 4F) and I have several other GNR and GCR locos "on the drawing board" and they will need appropriate stock.

Several people I have spoken to recently have said that the lack of coaching stock is a "pain" and more than one has considered reverting to G1. In fact one was on the point of giving up G3 if I hadn't agreed to go with the GNR and Gresley stock.

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

John,

I can't disagree that more coaching stock would be great.  I would just be surprised if that actually stops people from going into our scale, since there are more available than in G1 and far more than when I started in 7mm.  There are always holes to plug and the more people do it in the most varied ways with different materials, the more it will appeal to somebody new.

Your initiative to make coaches to plug one of those gaps is to be applauded and supported.  Whether it is a big gap is a matter of opinion, but it would be nice to plug it.  As I said before, if there is anything I can do to help with CAD or whatever, just ask.

And you are right, had I not been lucky enough to buy a complete train in one go, I would be working away making corridor stock now - just as you are!  As it is I am casting Sentinel bits en mass!

Really John, I just feel the scale sometimes needs to be talked up rather than talked down.  It is a great scale to work in, there is a wide range of parts and kits on the market, many of which are damned good (I'm not talking about my own) and there is now a wide range of railways both fixed and portable which show it off very well.  We need to celebrate that.  I still think the biggest reason people don't try Gauge 3 is that they have never heard of it, so we need to get the word out and demonstrate what a great scale it is.  Then we need them to be met with a positive "can do" feel from web sites and the Society.

Mike

[IanT]

Your stuff is damned good too Mike!   :-)

IanT

[Jon Nazareth]

No body makes LBSCR carriages in G3 but it didn't put me off modelling this scale.  There is a chap who supplies 7mm, Ian MacCormac, stock and is very obliging when asked to enlarge his etches to G3.  I have an early 1st and a 3rd brake van etched kit waiting in the wings.  So, there are ways and means....

Jon

[classicdelights]

Today I stumbled across an interesting website: http://www.easybuildcoaches.co.uk/

The chap running it appears to have broken down the construction of BR Mk 1 coaches into a simple task with ready made sides, bottom and removable roof, all this is for 0 gauge.  A complete kit with bogie parts and wheels is a very reasonable £120 or so.  I approached him to see if what he had developed could be scaled up the gauge 3 size.  He replied that this could easily be done  but the issue was that the tooling costs to produce the plastic parts was huge.  He thought that an investment of between £40,000 and £50,000 would be needed.

I declined the offer as this was a tad out of my reach, what with an impending house move on the cards.  It is a great pity but with such a small potential market it is clear that something like a cheap plastic coach is never going to happen the way it has been done in more popular scales.

Back to the drawing board!

Phil

[MikeWilliams]

Phil,

Tooling for plastic injection moulding is always going to be expensive but many of those parts could be made from moulded resin or cast metal with minimal tooling costs.  The etchings could be re-done for Gauge 3, which leaves the castings which he lists as:

battery boxes (could be resin in G3 and pattern already exists)
brake cylinders (ditto, like those marketed by Peter Korzilius)
dynamo (ditto or whitemetal, pattern exists)
buffer heads (much better in steel anyway, even in 7mm)
electrical regulator (could be cast resin)
coupling hooks (he lists as castings but also includes as etchings - easy to cast in nickel really)
roof vents (already available as whitemetal castings)

Also, as the size increases I question whether plastic sides and ends are a good idea, which brings us back to the Tim Kraay-type laser cut metal.  Biggest problem may be forming the roof.

In all, it really shouldn't be a problem.  But do any of those who have tried making kits for BR MK1s care to comment on here?  Francis?  David?  John?  Keith?

Mike

[Traininvain]

The following castings are all available which are either compatible with BR Mk1 carriages or with other BR/LMS/LNER passenger rolling stock. It may be necessary to obtain the permission of the pattern owner but, in the first instance, I suggest that anyone interested in any of these parts should contact the caster directly. Any questions just contact me outside this forum.

Ian

Battery boxes:
Available as w/metal casting (caster Walsall Model Industries)

Brake cylinder:
brake cylinder ends (with bolts) exist as a privately owned pattern and as white metal castings (available from Slaters Plastikard (and possibly Walsall Model Industries too). These are used in conjunction with 1 inch dia brass tube (I think)

Dynamo:
BR style dynamo exists as 2 privately owned patterns - one for the body and one for the bracket (available from Slaters as as w/metal casting for the body and brass l/w casting for the bracket)

Buffer housing and heads:
LMS versions of buffer housing exists as a privately owned pattern (l/w brass castings available from Slaters). Walsall Model Industries supply steel buffer heads.

Roof vents
LMS / LNER torpedo vents exist as a privately owned pattern (l/w brass castings available from Slaters and w/metal castings from Walsall Model Industries).
Not sure about BR hemispherical vents

Seating
Accurately cut tulip wood mouldings. These are privately available, based on a prototype drawing and need cutting to side with ends adding.

Also available:

as w/metal castings:
Guards ducket   (Walsall)
Door vent bonnet (Walsall)

As l/w brass castings:
Hinges - Top, Middle, Bottom (Slaters)   
Door stops - door and side (Slaters)      
Butterfly door handles (Slaters)   
Guards door handles   (Slaters)   
Commode handles (Slaters)   
Train alarms (Slaters)   
Electric jumper cables (Beech)   
Train control box (Beech)

NOTE:

I believe Walsall have an ongoing BR Mk 1 coach project which will make use of many if the above components so it would be worth talking to them about running gear and other components not mentioned above.

It may also be worth contacting Kingscale to check the availability of the castings used in their BR Mk 1 open second.

[Peaky 556]

That's a very comprehensive list from Ian.
I would add the BR1 Bogie Side castings in W/M from Walsall. 

[classicdelights]

I have done the laser cut steel parts necessary to make a bogie using the Walsall Model Industries cast white metal sides.  I have made several of this type of bogie and have completed the drawings for both BR Mk 1 and SR bogies.  If anyone is interested in having a go the parts are available from Model Engineers Laser for a few quid.  The bogies use Walsall coach wheels/axles and bearings.  The design is based on one first described by John Van Riemsdyk and is both compensated and sprung.  A couple of photos are attached.

Phil