Slaters Wooden PO wagons

[Sleeper Agent]

I bought one (side door only) on Saturday.
I'm missing the nuts and bolts for the axleguards, also the end stanchions and the wire.
Filled in the Customer Response form (which was in the box) and emailed it to Slaters this morning.

Neither the stanchions or the axleguard fixings are in the packing list.
David told me it was a rush to get the kits packed, following the flood damage.

Hopefully a call or return of the form will get you the required bits too.
I agree, they look like a nice kit with several improvements over the covered goods.

Andy

Ah the side door type is also the one i've started on and yes checking it likewise is missing the stanchions as well, I'll go ahead a little further with the assembly to make sure I'm not missing anything else before I send the form off ta.
As Barry mentioned the flooding incident did look quite heartbreaking so yes think I can let this go without banging the drums but will reiterate it seems a cracking kit even without considering the cheap price tag. Unlike with some of the other laser kits out there woodgrain for all the exterior pieces goes the right way and the pieces fit together very nicely



I'm a little rusty with MR wagons and didn't take a photo of the display one foolishly but is the interior supposed to be bare? The instructions loosely imply grey all over except for below the frames,
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Midland-Railway-D302-5-plank-mineral-wagon/3274887?id=3274887&slug=Midland-Railway-D302-5-plank-mineral-wagon

https://www.hattons.co.uk/298208/kitbuilt_kb575_kb_6_plank_open_wagon_with_sleeper_load_in_mr_grey_pre_owned_kit_built/stockdetail.aspx
while other than the mention of black iron work on some Essery's Midland Wagon book is coy but quickly looking about at models online it seems they were.
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co467986/model-midland-railway-wagon-model-wagon
Is this a truism for all periods?

Steve

[Andy B]

Had an apologetic email back from David at Slaters yesterday evening, and the bits should be in the post today.
So he should be anticipating similar requests from the others sold so far.

Andy

[Jon Nazareth]

I'm building one of the Slater's Midland end door wagons and am a little confused over what should be showing on the inside of the wagon when it comes to bolt heads.  The instructions say that the bolt heads were flush but flush with what?  Were the heads recessed into the planking or left proud?  The castings supplied are a nut on a shaft so, if the nuts go on the outside, surely a head should be fitted on the inside.  Any comments would be gratefully received.
I may file the thread from the casting, insert from the inside and place a nut on the outside which should sort out the 'look' of the thing but, I'll await to hear from those that are far more knowledgeable than myself.

Jon

[IanT]

There are others here who are far more expert than myself when it comes to wagons Jon (let alone the Midland Railway types) but as a general rule of thumb, I assume that a wagon will have the nuts on the outside (for ease of maintenance), together with a washer (unless there is a washer plate) and that a coach bolt has been used - i.e. there will be a round head on the inside. These may well have been almost flush with the inside but you would have been able to see them...

This was most certainly not always the case but if I don't have anything to tell me otherwise - photos etc - then it's not a bad starting assumption. Sometimes of course - a wagon had some nuts on the inside and also some on the outside (just to be awkward). You can that on this GNR wagon, although it's impossible to know if this is original or happened during maintenance or possibly restoration.

Regards,

Ian



 

[IanT]

Just looking at my post again - and I should have been clearer that coach bolts were only used where they went directly into wood - not if there was a metal surface underneath the head...that would have been a bolt head...

Thinking about it - this is quite a large subject in it's own right Jon, too big really for generalities - so the best thing might be for you to read (what I consider to be) one of the best articles on the subject of wagon modelling (albeit in 4mm). I can't post it here - but I will email you some scans. I think you will find them useful reading...

Regards,

IanT

[Spitfire2865]

From studying the drawings heavily during my scratchbuild, it appears where there was ironwork on the inside, of which the D299 and derrived designs had plenty, there were countersunk headed bolts. Im not even sure there were any coach bolts in the actual body as every bolt used an iron on each side!
Now if these bolts differed from the GA, possibly they were different.

[Jon Nazareth]

Trevor
That makes very interesting reading.  Heads sated as being 'flush on the inside', can only mean countersunk in my opinion. 

Andy B, what do you think?

Jon

[IanT]

I haven't looked at this particular Midland wagon Jon and (as stated) have no deep expertise in this area either.

But I am familiar with some aspects of mechanical engineering and wonder if the 'words' being used to describe some items is causing bit of confusion. A traditional coach (or carriage) bolt was primarily designed to join wood to metal. They consisted of a domed head, with a square section beneath and then a smooth shaft with a short threaded end. They were designed to be pushed into a drilled hole and then pulled fully into the hole by "nutting up". Coach bolts pre-dated the railways, as they were used on horse-drawn wagons and coaches/carriages - as were square headed bolts by the way. Very early versions would have had a nut made to match the bolt - by a blacksmith of course.

With regards a "flush" bolt, there was a specialist version of the coach bolt, called a Plough bolt (used to attach plough shears) but I don't think these were used on the railways.

I've certainly seen reference to "c/sk" bolts on drawings but I have always assumed that this referred to coach bolts - as I'm not sure what else they could be? So where I see that, I model a 'domed' head bolt (rather than a square or hex head one). One of the problems of modelling 'open' railway wagons, is that interior photos are rarely available.

In the photo of the GNR wagon I attached earlier, you can see a range of bolt 'useage', including what I believe to be coach bolts set in the side knee. I'm fairly sure a blacksmith would have used a square drift to make the holes on this ironwork - thereby locking the heads on insertion (nuts then on the inside of course). You can also see domed heads at the L/H inside-end (which hold the [wooden] end stanchions) which were nutted on the outside with washers.

So that's my take on things - it's quite possible someone will tell me I'm talking complete tosh - but I do try to think about how things were originally made and what I've explained here makes sense from an engineering point of view. However, I'll let Andy or Mike give you their more expert opinions.

:-)

Regards,

IanT

[MikeWilliams]

Nicely put Ian.  That particular GNR wagon has had a lot of restoration and I wouldn't rely on any preserved wagon for small details.  Milestones Museum is however well worth a visit - it is superb.

Mike

[Jon Nazareth]

Ian
I totally agree with everything that you have said.  However, I did find this drawing of the MR wagon with an end door and this detail shows some countersunk bolts/machine screws.  The actual wagon may not have been built using these but it's interesting to see that they have been drawn in.  Elsewhere, the drawing doesn't show this level of detail as the chosen elevations aren't conducive to this level of detail.

[Jon Nazareth]

This should be larger

Jon

[Jon Nazareth]

It's a bit confusing as the heads of the fixings securing a strap to the side of the wagon are shown almost touching the countersunk heads.

Jon

[IanT]

No, they are certainly drawn as 'proper' c/sk bolts Jon. So maybe I'm just completely confusing you about this detail...

I'd "Ask Andy" - as I'm sure he knows a lot more about Midland wagons than I ever will. Raises some interesting questions though. How did you stop them turning when doing/undoing the bolt?

A screw slot seems most likely? I recall discussing with someone whether it was worth while filling (with solder) screw slots on very small roundhead BA bolts, as paint usually did the job quite well enough. Maybe we shouldn't have been trying! 

Be interesting to find out...

Regards,

IanT

 

[Andy B]

Hi Chaps,
Sorry, have been a bit busy over the weekend.
Jon is closest to the money. Ian - I think you've got too hung up on the 'coach bolt' thing and dismissed the right answer.......

Flat countersunk square neck bolt appears to be the technical name - sometimes known as a 'plough bolt' (or 'plow bolt' for our transatlantic brethren).  The Midland just referred to them as Countersunk Bolts; the forge must have turned them out in their thousands.

The attached drawing extract is from the 12T coal wagon body details, but the same use of CSK square holes goes right back to the earliest 'low' (3 plank) wagons.




I'll try a bigger extract next time - just worked out how the images work (not attachments....)

Andy

[IanT]

Ok, sorry to cause any confusion, I was aware of plough bolts in agriculture but didn't think they were used on railway wagons - now I know better!

For the curious, you can see some here....

http://www.blacksmithbolt.com/store/c/97-Plow-Bolts.aspx

My apologies Jon/Trevor

IanT