Complicated Software

[753]

We are privileged to live in this extortionary time where manufacturing technology is now available at an affordable price to the hobbyist. The problems arise when you realise the software that runs your machine is extortionary complicated, those who have programming experience find them easy to use while the rest of us stare at the screen asking now what do I do.
I am a member of the G1 3D circle, a group formed to exchange and promote 3D tech, while some members do produce models the majority spend their time discussing the complexities of said tech.
What is required is a programme that is user friendly, think back to the first PC's when you had to master DOS to be able to do anything on your machine. Then came along Mr Gates and his Widows programme, what happened? Vast numbers of people became computer literate overnight. I contend the same is required for hobbyist to be able to master these wonderful machines.

Mike

[cabbage]

No, I have to disagree with you! What is required is basic programming training. Anyone can produce a program, however it takes training to produce a GOOD program. Systems have come and gone over the years but a program written to a specific programming methodology can be looked at by a commercial programmer and he should be able to carry on. I still use SSADM , JSP and GRAPES. Modern systems are OOP and BLOB.

I have the e-mailed .scad program from JRFC. It has no commercial style - but it works. Speaking as an MIAAP yhe program is overly complex and could do with a complete reworking on the editing and layout. John has written a program for himself - whilst I am trained to write programs for other programmers to edit.

If you examine the .scad files that I have written in the WIKI they will look simple, short, and obvious. It has taken 40 plus years to get to this level!!!

Regards

Ralph

[753]

Ralph
I think you have proved my point, programming is second nature to you. It's like the person who writes the instructions to a piece of kit you may buy, they are familiar with the product and thus assume you will understand their instructions.
Sucsessful instructions work if writer places themselves in the receivers position and assumes the receiver do's not have any prior knowledge of the product.
If you are selling a piece of kit, and recommend the buyer does a basic programming course before attempting to use the item, all well and good but I don't think you would sell many of the items?
Everything is easy when you know how!
Now let's help one another, what would you recommend I do to start understanding basic programming.

Mike

[cabbage]

I am "out" at the moment but this evening I will write you your reply. In the meantime I would ask you to look up the language called Pascal.

Regards

Ralph

[John Branch]

Hi, All,

I have been following your adventures into 3D printer programming with mixed feelings.  A few years ago I was tempted to buy one of  the early machines as I could see the possibilities for making stuff relevant to our hobby.  Man! Am I grateful I did not do any such thing (apart from the fact that those systems were several times more expensive and vastly less capable than today's machines.)  I have looked at Open Scad, and after Ralph's suggestion, at the Wiki about Pascal.  Neither of them ' despite using English words mean anything to me, even when explaining a function, or a term's use, I am none the wiser.  Words like "Translate" and "Render" have no meaning for me in this context, let alone "String".  So I need a primer, preferably in print that starts at the VERY beginning.  Any suggestions?    I did work in BASIC  for a while (in the '70s), and can draw in 2D Autosketch fast and accurately,  drawing in Autosketch is not programming-it is drawing by alternative means-is there a similar system for 3D ??

In the meantime there is no way I'll be buying a 3D printer, shame!

John

[cabbage]

If you can use Autosketch then try turboCAD. I am on the train home from Sheffield. Give me half an hour to get a cheese doorstop in my stomach and I will give you my thoughts!

Regards

Ralph

[cabbage]

I hope this works!

[753]

Ralf
Thanks for your PDF, but again you assume we know what all this means? I like John have zero knowledge of programming. Just instructing someone to write lines of abstract symbols doe's not work.
Your analogy of poetry is fine if you can speak English, but without a basic knowledge of the language it means zero.
You mention TurboCad, I have been using this programme for years as it is similar to old style engineering drafting and I understand this process, and not to difficult to learn.
But programming!!!!! yes frustrating for all of us!

Mike

[cabbage]

Errrmmmm....
Is this the entry where I point out that I am not English, English is not my native language and ( to be honest ) I have never actually heard anyone speak English...

My native language is German. German forename and German surname - bit of a giveaway!!! Most computer languages are based on English. Forth is the only language based on German and APL the only language based on God Knows What(!) Some think it could be Finnish or Basque.

But the techniques of programming can be taught regardless of the language used. Forth uses Reverse Polish Notation which is to my mind easier to work than  Arabic.

Come and find me at the AGM.

Regards

Ralph

[IanT]

I've been using Open SCAD for a little while but I am far from being expert.

I use SCAD for 3D printing relatively simple objects, with my key criteria being that if I can sketch them on paper by combining a few basic components - then I can probably work out how to 'define' those parts and combine them to get what I need. Things like motor 'saddles' (e.g. rectangle less cylinder) or funnels (cylinder with different diameter ends) can be scripted without worrying too much about how to "programme" things per-se in my experience. For John's work, I think I'd be looking into 'Modules' if I was using SCAD but I've taken another approach.

Have a look at this SCAD tutorial for a stage by stage approach.  http://files.openscad.org/tutorial/

I would also recommend printing out the SCAD Cheatsheet   http://www.openscad.org/cheatsheet/ 

For objects as complicated as John's design - personally, I would not use Open SCAD (although hat's off to John for doing so). I've been a TurboCAD 2D user for well over 20 years but recently decided to bite the bullet with 3D CAD and invest some time to learn it. Coming late to the scene, I decided to use Solid Edge 2020 Community Edition which is a free-to-download "lifetime" licence and runs locally (no Cloud!). There are some excellent eLearning tutorials available which will get you going. I've used SE2020 to design more complex items for 3D printing and it is extremely capable...

If I wanted to teach my Grandson to design & print 3D objects - then I'd still quick-start him with Open SCAD and it's ideal for 'sharing' because the 'source code' is a text file and usually very easy to customise. However, for my broader engineering needs, Solid Edge will be my choice of design tool going forward.

As for 'programming' languages I've been using Micromite Basic (MMB) for a while and I'd recommend it for anyone who needs to get things done quickly without frying their brain. MMB is fast and available on a wide range of platforms including PIC32 and ARM Cortex boards. The reason it's easy to use and quick to debug is because it's very interactive compared to something like Arduino (although not as interactive as Forth of course) and it was originally written for mere mortals (like myself) who never have (and never will) programme professionally.

If all you need to do is "tinker" (e.g. make things work without spending all your time on it) then MMB is the language for you. Otherwise, learn 'C' or Python and disappear down the programming rabbit hole. Find the PDF "Getting Started with Micromite" at the bottom of this page https://geoffg.net/micromite.html and if you want to give it a free MMB test drive then also download 'MMB for DOS/Windows' as well (same page).

You can then run simple (or complex if you need to) MMB programmes on your PC (albeit without most of the I/O and graphics available on other SBC versions). It is more than fast enough for most things (e.g. you won't know it's interpreted) and can use the PC's serial ports and filing system. So you could (for instance) use a Micromite (PIC32 chip) to gather data (e.g. read an analogue port) and then feed it (via serial) back to your PC for analysis in Excel (using .CLS files) - with programmes written in MM Basic running on both machines.

So - just my personal take on these things but hopefully of use to some here.

Regards

IanT

[MikeWilliams]

In my opinion Mike is absolutely right.  Both members on here saying its easy were employed for many years by computer companies.  Maybe the yooth of today will have a better understanding of it, but there is probably a large majority of members who have no knowledge of programming and no desire to learn it.  They will, tonight, be working with their milling machines and soldering gear rather then using an on-line forum.

Mike

[John Branch]

That clinches it.  No way am I going anywhere this technique, and no-one is more disappointed than me!  I looked at the two links suggested by Ian, and a lot of websites of the suppliers of software.  My degree of puzzlement may be gauged by the fact that I could not decide if the software on offer was to design the object or to drive the printer.  (Do you need both?)

If you can't make it out of cut sheet material, I will have to buy the item ready made.

John

[IanT]

For 3D printing John - you need a programme that produces a .STL file - to feed to your 'slicer' which actually drives the printer itself. I use a slicer called Cura (also a free download) and it's pretty simple to use, although you can make it do more complicated things if you want to dive deep into it.

I printed a couple of test pieces on my newly assembled printer straight away and was printing my own stuff the next day. It's not that hard to get started but does become more difficult as your ambition grows - and John is clearly very ambitious.   :-)

If you want to cut metal (or wood) then your CAD drawing needs to be passed to a CAM package to generate the G-code most CNC machines understand. I've not ventured there yet as the costs (compared to 3D print) tend to start climbing quite sharply - depending on what you want to do. John's new machine is interesting because it can handle two different technologies additive 3D print and subtractive CNC (Laser & Router).     

Regards,

IanT 

[John Candy]

I installed CURA before receiving the Snapmaker and installing Luban but found that the list of CURA supported printers does not include the Snapmaker (possibly because it is a multi-role machine). You can define the parameters as a "Custom" printer but since the settings are part of Luban there didn't seem much point in the exercise.

The Snapmaker Luban combines the three functions (printing/laser/CNC milling) and generates the G-code from imported files of various types.
There are lots of settings to configure the printer environment, as well as laser and CNC(a few are visible in the screenshot).

It seems that Luban should (in 3D print mode) be able to do anything that CURA can do .... or am I missing something?

Regards,
John.

[John Branch]

May I describe what I thought , in my naivete , the 3D design and printing process would involve? This may go some way to explain my befuddlement with all the language surrounding 3D techniques.

I thought that, as  preparing a 2D drawing for laser cutting only needed a clean outline in .dxf format, then a 3D one would need plan, side and other elevations, as per an engineering drawing.  These views have all the information needed for a human machinist to turn the drawing into reality.  I assumed that the printer software would take these views and turn them into a printable solid,  and then print it.  I did not expect to get into programming.
So I will cease and desist my involvement  in this topic, but follow your achievements, gentlemen, with awe and amazement.

John