Ten Quid G3 Wagon Chassis

[Clive_F]

This morning I picked up a batch of ten G3 wagon chassis that had been made for me by Liverpool Laser, total cost for the ten £100. (https://liverpoollaserandtube.co.uk).

These are part of an idea to create budget G3 locos and rolling stock to encourage newcomers and especially "the next generation" of youngsters into Gauge 3.

These particular wagons are loosly based on the dimensions of the eponymous "BR 16t mineral wagon". Wheelbase is 100mm, overall length and width 200 x 80mm. Height above rail is 60mm and the front buffer beam 25mm deep.Each chassis without wheels weighs 195g.

The chassis are first laser cut from 1mm phosphate coated steel and then folded using a digitally-controlled "LVD Robotic Bending System" giving a highly-accurate fold and great stiffness without any further treatment.

Four laser cut 6.35mm holes are provided to take ¼" axles but for the photos I fitted a set of Slaters Ref G3125 3' 7" Plain Disc Coach Wheels. Those axles with their brass bushes just snapped in and could also be used with a few minor adaptations.

I plan to keep five for my own eventual use but if anyone would like to purchase one of more, please email me direct at roligdag@gmail.com. If possible I would prefer PayPal as it provides a posting address but BACS is also possible. Price is £10 each with free Hermes delivery.

Take care,

Clive

   

[LankyTank]

Wheelbase is 100mm,

Is that a typo?

If not, by my calculations that measurement equates to, just shy of, 7ft 5 inch.

[AshleyW]

good to see some initiative for seeking altertanatives. i'd recommend getting future batches with holes spotted in the bearing sides to accept leaf springs . if one then wants to represent a say 16t wagon, you'd have to factor in, axleboxes, vee hangers, brake lever/gear , couplings and buffers. which all adds up the price, unless of course you are skilled enough to produce these on a lathe etc. there's nowadays the 3-d printing route, which could see all those parts made fairly cheaply, so could work towards a society beginners chassis ??

[cabbage]

Actually Ashley... 3D scad files for axle boxes, vee hangers and wagon brake equipment already exist in the G3 Wiki. As do buffers and oleos.

Regards

Ralph

[John Candy]

At 7+ ft WB, there are (I am sure) example of single bolster and "runners" which would suit .... when I havea moment to spare, I will scour the pages of my wagon books. Such wagons often were fitted with dumb buffers and some were permanently coupled in sets (without intermediate buffers) so costs could be trimmed considerably.
The link to the company is very useful : I shall be needing quantities of GWR and LNER underframes and bogies before long and having the basic framing ready-folded will be a big time saver.

Regards,
John

[Clive_F]

Thank you all for your contributions and your very positive response to this rather "off the wall" idea.

Now that Liverpool Laser have a digital model, it's just a question of asking for any alterations. I have been dealing with Craig, a young and very enthusiastic digital modeller at LL and he can make any alterations we request.

Simple alterations to dimensions are in fact very easy. This project started with me taking them a flat paper plan and at that time I had not much of a clear idea of the "generic BR goods chassis" so I just chose round figures.

Now I'm slightly older and wiser but still my rail knowledge is limited. So we can put together a
standard chassis size if such a thing existed?

Checking the 16t mineral, I now agree WB at 9ft/2.74m = 125mm at G3, rounded to nearest 5mm.
And overall length of 16'6"/5.03m gives 225mm approx.

I don't think that the width should be changed until some of you get a chassis and "fine tune" it using various wheel/axle combinations on the 2.5" track.

Last small detail is the depth of the "buffer beam" presently 25mm. That was a pure guess as I could not find a source, any suggestions?

All the above assumes that we for the moment take the 16t mineral as our generic wagon size?

As to buffers, I already have a "budget" item in progress. Yesterday I showed the attached profile photo of a brass Meccano model buffer to Craig asking him whether he knew of a machining firm who could produce G3 versions.

There is plenty of networking on their industrial estate and he had a company in mind. And even better, he said that he could produce a digital model to send to them for a quote simply based on my profile photo. They could then produce buffers quickly and cheaply using CNC.

Note that I gave him 10mm as a reference for the buffer plate diameter. I had not been able to find the dimensions of a 16t buffer - any offers?

Let me say that the 1mm steel chassis is a lot tougher than it looks. For example the folds are impossible to unbend by hand. I suspect that the LVD hydraulic folder may actually " forge/work harden" the steel in the bending process.

The same LVD robotic folder has a material capacity of up to at least 12mm thickness. ( Try bending that in your vice!). And upping the thickness is straightforward, just a slight increase in price.

I will soon be ready to order a fresh batch of ten chassis so it's a good time to amend dimensions -your suggestions, please.

And when I get a price for the brass buffers, I'll post it.

Thanks again for all your ideas.

Clive

[MikeWilliams]

I hope you take this is the positive way its intended.

If you are contemplating other projects might I suggest you ask for information first?  Might save the need for a change of dimensions?  I am sure many on here could provide all the right dimensions for a vehicle you want.

On the subject of dimensions, you are rounding dimensions to the nearest 5mm but I'm not clear why?  Some people will be happy with that whilst others won't.  If you stick with that you are ruling out a proportion of your potential customers.  If you don't round but stick with the right dimension you then appeal to those in both camps.  Afterall, it costs the same to make it right as it does to make it almost right.

Just a suggestion.

Mike

[MikeWilliams]

Sorry - I should have added something about laser cutting.  I assume you have experience of this but many provincial towns will have steel fabricators with laser cutting facilities.  One I recommend is https://accurate-laser.co.uk/.  Send the the file and they reply with a quote within hours.  They cut and fold if needed.  Their turnaround is hours rather than days and their prices competitive.  They operate a 24 hour business with three shifts.  Very easy fir to deal with.

Since the post to you on 24 hour delivery it doesn't matter at all where they are.

Mike

[John Candy]

Examples of wagons with 7ft 6ins WB:-

NBR diagram 1 : 4-plank end door mineral (at least one example still running in 1930)
NER diagram U1 : single bolster (none listed as entering LNER stock in 1923)

Probably many other examples from other railways.
John.

[MikeWilliams]

Why not just change the wheelbase to 9ft (121.5mm) and the other dimensions to match an RCH standard wagon of which hundreds of thousands were built in various forms?  Or indeed stick with the 16ton, though don't GRS already do a similar laser cut steel fold-up chassis for that?

Come to think of it, if you stick with very common dimensions and get over the brakegear problem by laser cutting that to fold down from the floor, then Peter Korzelious already does one of those too.

Mike

[Clive_F]

As to finalising the dimensions first, I had a small batch of chassis made at my own expense really as an experiment in having steel laser cut and folded, having had no prior experience myself of either.

I also needed to get some idea of cost and generally see whether the whole idea was feasible at all.

If it was shown to be possible, the next stage would then be to refine the design.

Clive

[MikeWilliams]

Yes, laser cutting and folding 1mm (20g) steel for wagon chassis is quite possible and quite strong enough,  Here's one I've been doing for 20 years.  Being in pairs like this you can set the wheelbase to whatever is needed.  I've sold or used about 2000 of these to date.

[MikeWilliams]

And if you are worried about getting the wheelbase exact then a simple laser cut jig like this bolts to the bottom of the W irons using the screws which hold the keeps.  The keeps by the way enable you to remove the wheels at any time without bending the steel.

[MikeWilliams]

This is what the final assembly looks like.

Mike

[Clive_F]

Thanks, Mike for explaining what is already available for laser cutting and folding of chassis. And those chassis of yours certainly do look fine. Also good the you concur that 1mm/20swg is suitable.

In my case the story was that I had only ever vaguely heard of using a laser to cut steel and thought possibly that it was only if you were building a ship!

So I did a very simple drawing of a flat 1mm steel chassis plate with folding marks in case the laser firm might be able to put me onto an engineering firm with a folding machine.

I then very gingerly went to local "laser cutting" firms found on Google hoping that they wouldn't laugh me out!

At the first firm, the greeting was at best described as "muted." I don't think that they liked either my rather amateurish paper plan nor that I only wanted a minimum run of ten. It wasn't made any better when they asked me whether "I had a 3D model" and I asked them why one was needed to cut a 2D plate!

But I think that they then took pity on me.They explained that folding and powder coating were options, both of which sounded really good. So I left the plan with them, they would call with a quote.

But to be on the safe side, I then drove to Liverpool Laser. My guessing is that LL are a relatively small firm who exist by picking up lots of small jobs that the bigger firms regard as uneconomic.

My welcome  at Liverpool Laser was altogether warmer. I walked straight into their small design office and was greeted with a smile by manager Ray Chapple. Ray took a quick look at my plan and said " Yes, no problem." He walked me over to Craig, a member of the small three person CAD design team who looked carefully at the plan and gave it the thumbs up - it could be scanned straight into their computer. Craig said he'd phone a quote to me and I went home.

The very next morning Craig phoned with a quote if just £100 + VAT for ten chassis. Now I knew that this was cheap because the first firm had said something vaguely about "minimum of £200 to do the 3D model etc."

So I took a chance and accepted on the spot. I opted for folding but no powder coating.

A few days later, the first firm called with a quote of just over £300 which did included the powder coating. They knew Liverpool Laser but I could tell that the guy was still stunned when I told him of their earlier £100 quote!

Just for the record, Liverpool Laser had offered the option of an extra £5 per chassis for powder coating but that still would have undercut the first firm by 50%.

And the cheap Liverpool Laser quote could well be linked to the fact they already have two model clubs as customers, one trains the other tanks.

So that's how I got to where I'm at.

Clive