Craft Cutters?

[MikeWilliams]

That's interesting Steve.  The craft cutter option leaves a lot of work to be done by hand and the router a lot of work producing the bits, changing cutters etc.  I can see this would not be a problem for making a one-off, but if (big IF) you wanted a batch I would prefer to make the body this way, complete all the details etc and then send it away for resin moulding.  That way you only need to make the details once.

And, if you are geared up to simple, flat, single-sided resin mouldings at home, then you don't even need to make a complete body.  John Candy makes sections, repeats them in resin, assembles them into the complete body, and that becomes the pattern.  Less work in the long run.

Mike

[IanT]

I understand that the resin bodies are getting more expensive though Mike.

Is that partly because of the 'mold a whole body' approach - or in other words, would simple "sides" that need to be assembled be easier/cheaper to mold?

I must say that I really like the idea of the CAD 'router' approach Steve and it can be used for a lot more than just profiling plasticard - but a small CNC milling package (with Mach 3 etc) is still about 2,600 GBP from someone like Arc Euro Trade - which whilst I'd love to have one, is a bit too tasty for me.

I was interested to see a kind of "manual" routing system being used by a tram modeller in ME recently. He had a wood router set up with a form of copy-router system built on drawer slides. He then just moved a pointer over a master profile and the cutter followed the action. Sounds crude but seemed to work and almost certainly didn't cost too much. I don't see why some kind of similar manual system would not work on plastikard (and it's much more in my price range). Just a thought.

IanT

[Markie]

Sadly the Cricut would not be suitable, as it only cuts thin card attached to a backing layer and does indeed use pre-programmed cartridges...
... I know this as we re-versioned the US infomercial for the screens of the UK - so yes... it's all our fault!

BR

Markie

[John Candy]

Ian,

Yes, you can "knock out" a van body as resin components for very small cost.....I haven't done a detailed costing but as a guesstimate I would suggest less than 4 GBP (and that allows for a 25% failure rate).

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

This is a bit off-ropic, but yes Ian, the one-piece body does add to the cost, as does employing a professional rather than making moulds and casting resin yourself.  Some of us heard David White's talk at Derby which mentioned the dangers of casting reasin at home - basically unless you have equipment and experience, don't!

A mould for our size of vehicle costs between £250 and £450, depending on size and whether there are separate bits to be included.  Body castings then cost about 10% of that each, again depending on the complexity, whether metal parts need to be cast-in, and the volume of resin used.

I leave the reader to calculate the figues.  Take a large-ish goods van as being towards the upper end of the scale (£400), assume sales of 5 per year (yes, Gauge 3 sales can be that low) and a 3-year return on investment.  That's a large chunk of the c£140 selling price which includes all the castings, bought in components like wheels, box, etc etc.

Mike

[IanT]

Yes, I suspected as much Mike.

I also suspect there will always be a divide (in economic terms) between what an individual will want to undertake and what a 'business' will need to do to be viable. A major part of this will either be in labour costs or what might be called 'capital costs'. My labour (should I decide to undertake a build) is essentially free - but is something actually "work" if you enjoy doing it? But capital costs represent real money to me and need a lot more thought.

I'm not sure it was stated at the beginning of this thread - but part of my interest in "cutters" was to see if we could set up some kind of "Library" of society templates - accessable (and contributed to) by the Membership - that would deliver a much wider range of G3 rolling stock. A "print-a-kit" would have allowed just the raw materials of such kits to be held - with no second guessing of future kit demand. However, I'm not sure the technology is there yet - if only in terms of a common design tool being available.

There are also other differences between the individual and business 'constructor' and I've touched on on an important one above. We generally all do this for fun and not to make a living (just as well in my case - I'd starve!). How often does the individual need to really mass-produce something?

As a fan of Star Trek, I have sometimes thought how convenient it might be to 'replicate' that model I would like to have. But then I also wonder how satisfying this would be and I suspect not very.

IanT

 

[Steve Cook]

Lots of really useful information coming to light (for me anyway), especially the costs as detailed by Mike - a bit of an eye opener.

I liked your point about creating a reference library Ian - I hadn't got as far as thinking about that. My point of origin sits somewhere between the one off vehicle and building a batch for resale / commercial venture. I was looking for a potential short cut for building two or three of the same thing (think carriage panelling, G1 or G3, for 4 - 6 wheel coaches) and essentially looking to cut down on the difficult parts, whilst accepting that the main structures can be relatively easily and quickly built. Alas, the current technology does not seem to support that approach - one either needs to invest quite heavily (in which case commercial routes look appealing to try and claw back some money over time), or one accepts the limitation of the current products (ie not being able to cut all the way through 20thou plasticard) and  lives with it. My concern with not being able to cut 20thou plasticard is the ease at which thin panelling could be cut out - I suspect a high failure rate if one snaps it out, a pain the proverbial if one has to go back over and cut through the existing lines (at least you might save on marking out time!). Out of interest Mike (and a little OT), how deep where the cuts on the AnD kits you have (just thinking whether half way or three quarters through etc)?

Steve

[cabbage]

(Cough!)

If you read the entires on the Venture loco I do actually state that; "perhaps the legacy from the Venture project might be the data files rather than the physical parts"...

Mike, the yellow peril has been framed and I await the boards from Germany.....

regards

ralph

[MikeWilliams]

Steve,

I am not able to measure the depth of cut on AnD parts (how would you do that?), but so far they have all snapped out of the sheet quite easily and the only cleaning up at all has been in a couple of corners.  For instance, the body end and headstock are in one, with an internal sharp corner between them.  80% snapped out fine and 20% left a tiny amount to clean with a knife.  0% caused any damage to the wanted parts.  I have not yet snapped out the smallest parts - strapping.  All I did with a knife was cut a cross in the window openings so the scrap came out in four parts instead of one.

With talk of knife cutting and routing nobody has mentioned lately the laser cutting service provided by the couple near York.  That cuts right through, gives very fine detail, can cut more than 20thou and is not expensive.  You send them a .dxf file and back come the parts, or so I believe, I've not actually used them.  Unless you intend to mass-produce, that may be the best economic solution.

I like to be self-sufficient when it comes to parts supply, but have to accept that if I am to have time to make half the models I'd like, then I need to outsource some things to professionals and accept the risks to quality, cost, delivery etc.

Mike

[Steve Cook]

Hi Mike

Sorry, wasn't suggesting you got the measuring sticks out or anything 

My experience of plasticard is that when snapping off on a scored line, one gets a 'nib' or witness line on the edge. It was just a question of how close this 'nib' was to the bottom of the sheet, giving an indication of what the cut depth might be and the relative ease of snapping the piece off.

Pleased to hear no problems so far 
Thanks
Steve

[MikeWilliams]

Hi Steve,

Just looked at the Denis Tilman parts again and I'd say they have been cut half way through - 10 thou.  That's enough to snap out of 20thou cleanly, but I don't think it would snap from anything thicker.

Just a thought, if the cut really is accurate maybe can you put it through twice?

Mike

[MikeWilliams]

Just an update on the Denis Tilman parts.  Denis used a drawing from a reputable source, but somewhere along the line the width came out wrong - very wrong!  We all make mistakes but to my mind what matters is how you deal with the mistakes.  Denis heard about the error and called me to say a new set was in the post, before I'd had a chance to call him.

This doesn't help with the technology but gives an indication that he's an honest and dependable chap who deserves to be supported.

Mike

[Steve Cook]

Sorry Mike, just realised I had neglected to thank you for posting up the information on the cut depth, my apologies (and thanks).

A good positive reaction from Denis regarding the issue with his kit of parts though. Is there a picture of either a built model, the kit or prototype floating around the internet anywhere?

Steve

[IanT]

Stangely enough there is Steve!   

Regards,

Ian T

[Steve Cook]

Thanks Ian 

Looks very nice indeed - is that 'straight out of the box' or does it sport some IanT additions?

Steve