LMS 10000/10001

[John Candy]

LMS 10000/10001

Anyone interested in developing a model of the first British mainline diesel locos?
The pair entered service on the eve of nationalisation (in LMS black and silver livery) and lasted in BR service until the 1960s.

Each the equivalent of a Class 5 steam loco, these two C0-C0 locos worked as a pair on expresses (such as "Royal Scot") or singly on intermediate passenger and express freight workings.

I suspect the most difficult part will be the cab sections/bonnets for which it may be possible to produce a resin moulding (as well as for the main body panels).

These are the only diesel locomotives (other than the early shunters) which could justifiably appear on a pre-nationalisation layout.

John.

Footnote : 10001 was not completed until early (I believe January) 1948 so only 10000 would have been seen running prior to nationalisation.
10001 was finished in the same livery as 10000 but the "LMS" lettering was omitted.

[cabbage]

No John....
The most difficult part will be the chassis and connecting it to the power bogies.  "The Twins" were anything but. With all due respect I would doubt the structural strength of resin castings to take the amount of force needed in a model diesel. You would have to "plate" them onto a plywood body. Your body is going to have to be a de facto monocoque  beam member. I use external and internal bracing of shaped pieces of 6mm birch ply with 6mm pine strip bracing. Dave uses a "backbone" of 3mm thick steel to form a traction bar between his bogies.

I use a double cup suspension for my bogies and Dave uses a turntable bearing.

A lot of maths is going to have to be done  plus a fair amount of structural design work before you even begin to look at how the thing will work.. "The Twins" have been on my "to build list" for a few years now and they are going to be difficult to build.

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Ralph,

I agree the chassis will not be easy (although there are available all the suggestions from both Dave and yourself to assist) and I would use a metal inner shell for body strength.
In referring to resin castings, I was merely suggesting a method of replicating the external detail (all the louvres and grilles, etc.), the nose "cone" being the particularly difficult part to replicate successfully because of all the curves.

It is the success of Dave's Sulzer Type 4   1-C0-C0-1 which spurred me on to consider a diesel.

Regards,
John.

[454]

John,

It is a great idea, pity i have so many other projects brewing like EM1 & 4472 restoration & 4771 revitalisation.
But I remember these famous diesel locos as I have seen them at Derby in my youth & later in store in the yard. I did consider one of these but went for a 44 as a first main line diesel as it was more slab sided & Chris Barron had a drawing design I could easily use albeit modified.

The LMS Derby main line diesel, as I call it, has subtle curves but not difficult to reproduce as it would be an exercise in laser cut ply bulkheads & stringers like an aircraft fuselage, this would guarantee the shape. The cab front can be similarly fabricated & the whole thing skinned over with thin ply ( possibly steamed) & the usual car body filler perhaps.

The bogies being Co-Co do not have the complication of the Bissel trucks like the Chris Barron Peak which was a pain to perfect to stay on track at high running speeds, but overcome by the intervention of Mr Bulleid's trapezoidal links.
But the main power bogie could be made as a laser cut frame with external adornments using resin castings. The traction motors 6 off would be my preferred choice as this would echo how the prototype was powered rather than the modellers concept of big motor & geared shafts.
All axles would be sprung.
The finish could be black with silver bogies. That would be a wow.

The big snag is I do not think I would have the patience & sticking power to built 2 of the brutes. Having said that if 2 models were made independently there is a strong chance that no 2 of them would be the same. 10000 & 10001.
Detail level, finish quality & choice of liveries.

Good idea John, I will await comments with interest as a collaborative venture would be the way to go.

Just going to seek out my diesel books & peruse the pics of 10000 & 10001 to gain inspiration.

Dave
454

[John Candy]

Dave,

I have ordered the "LMS Locomotive Profiles" book for these Ivatt diesels from Bill Hudson and will see how useful the drawings might be (those in the other books of the series are very good reproductions of the works GA's).

I would plan to use nose-suspended motors (as I believe you have done?) to provide maximum traction for what I would plan to be a very heavy loco.

I was thinking of a steel inner "box" type of construction with resin panelling for the detailed outer surfaces.

I have never been keen on timber in situations where damp might cause problems (but I guess corrosion becomes the alternative "enemy" if steel is used).

I wonder if this could become a "Flexikit" loco., where all the awkward parts (such as the body cladding and bogies) are available as "stock" items, leaving the purchaser to choose how to build the load-bearing structure?

Regards,
John.

[Moonraker]

Just in case you don't know, the Ivatt Diesel Recreation Society is building LMS 10000 in 12 inches to the foot. They would have all the drawings, etc you would need.

Also we find that 3D printing is a good way of modelling bogies and other components in G Scale, Gauge 1 and Gauge 3. The ABS plastic is plenty strong enough and I have never seen one break.

Regards
Peter Lucas
Adelaide

[Doddy]

John,

I think that using resin mouldings is the way to go, I have a pair of cast resin Baldwin Sharks in G scale and know first hand that the resin castings have a strength, fine detail and structural integrity which cannot be discounted in G3 gauge.

Indeed my 5" gauge resin class 22 cabs belie any doubt to me about using this material. The next stage is for that project is for the entire class 22 bodyshell to be made of 2 x cabs, 1 x roof, 2 x bogies and 2 x bodyshell sides - all cast in resin.

My own ICo-CoI locomotive will employ similar techniques, and although the gestation period to build will be longer than using 'cut and cover' wooden bodyshells.

Horses for courses really.

This link shows the build process from a plastic box to finished G scale item.

https://www.gscalecentral.net/general-g-scale/baldwin-sharknose-diesel-kit-thread/

[454]

I wondered how long it would be before resin & 3D printing would raise it's ugly head. This modeller is prepared to use resin castings but only when they have been made. I hate dealing with bulky sticky stinky gooey chemicals & am a non-starter when it comes to dealing with 3D design software packages. So I build my models in wood & "other stuff" because I like it. My models only hit the tracks on fine days so damp is never an issue. Slightest hint of rain & they are in.

So the bogies appeal to me as they are common with EM2, but in Gauge 3 the motor availability, size & power issue has been a subject of agonising debate amongst myself & others planning such a similar exercise.

There are schools of thought which I share on both sides of the fence that (1) the bogies should be powered with axle hung traction motors through spur gearing as per the prototype & (2) that a powerful kiddies electric scooter motor be installed & drive a centre axle with spur gears ex angle grinder forward & rear axles driven by sprocket & chain.

The difference between the 2 schools of thought becomes scenic garden versus driver "leg dangly" hauler.

So unless collaborative volunteers can whistle up & email us a 3D masterpiece in form of a 3D printable file which apparently is dead easy nowadays & others can deal with the gooey stuff, I might just quietly go away & design a wooden body.

This is a very appealing project worth pursuing.


Dave
454

[cabbage]

John,

If you have ordered the swan book then I suggest you sit down with a large mug of coffee and biscuits.... The twins were coach built not assembled. Page 26 has a fold out drawing that is slightly smaller than G3 scale. There are few flat area on the loco but lots of rolled curves and frustrums.

The SR 10,200 has the same problem.

regards

ralph

[454]

That surely is a good enough reason to construct with ply bulkhead formers with longitudinal stringers & skin over in thin ply. A constructional works photo in my book shows the centre box body without cab ends which suggests that this should not be so difficult as it appears. Coach built construction from laser cut ply for the model appeals to me.
This construction should not be affected by damp as it is used in the model boat world when suitably painted.
The resulting structure would be quite strong.

This I had considered to adopt for the SR Ashford built 1-Co-Co-1 as a replaceable & transferable body with the Peak but put off because am torn between silver or black colour for bogies.
That is why 10000 appeals to me as a black & silver LMS engine.

Bring it on, want to learn more.

Dave
454

[John Candy]

Peter,

No, I was not aware there are people wanting to build a full size replica of 10000!
With all the replica steam locos. under construction, it is amazing they are able to raise the funds.

Doddy,

Very interesting to see the construction details of the G-scale Hudson loco.
It seems that a batch of 45 were sold, which makes the production of a one-piece mould affordable.
On the basis of what it costs to have a one-piece mould produced for a (comparatively) small wagon body, I would expect the mould to cost a couple of thousand ... or more (that's just for the mould, the actual castings would be an additional few hundred each).
While I am capable of producing separate moulded parts at home, it requires the equipment of an industrial moulder to produce a one-piece mould of loco-sized proportions.
There is obviously sufficient demand for such G-scale models to justify the cost but I suspect one would be lucky to sell three in G3, which would push the unit cost above what most would be prepared to pay.

If this goes ahead, it will have to be on a "sectional", rather than one-piece, basis.

Regards,
John.

[John Candy]

Ralph,

I know it won't be easy....I have 4mm scale drawings of the loco.!

The book won't arrive for a couple of days, so the true scale of the task won't be known until I have had a chance to read it.

Dave,

The plywood method may be the way to produce master patterns for producing moulds for the "bendy" bits.

Regards,
John.

[454]

John,

You have hit the nail on the head! Cost.

That is why I am tempted to build a one off in wood. Fraction of the cost & it will be all kitchen table top stuff.

BTW there is a mention on Wikipedia about the post preservationist revival of the beast.

I did not know this fact until prompted by research in the wee small hours that 10001 in black & silver never had LMS on the side, so it is a temptation for me to do 10001 to avoid having to add extra impedimenta to a finished model. 

Cheers
Dave
454

[John Candy]

Dave,

If I can produce "sectional" moulds and castings in resin, then the cost will be "not a lot" for the body cladding and bogie sideframes.

Will give matter more thought when the book arrives.

The Sun has emerged from behind the clouds and I have just returned from Travis Perkins with another load of 4x2, for the latest extension ..... so I'm off now to the garden!

John.

[Doddy]

"I wondered how long it would be before resin & 3D printing would raise it's ugly head."

Stop hitting me with dem negative vibes! 

John, the Baldwin Shark priced out at £250 each and were cast by CMA Moldform for a private commission.

I fully understand the issue you raise of ROI for three locos, when I enquired about the drawings sold for the Barron Peak, I was told it was in the dozens, but only found three people actually building one!

The Baldwin Shark was built by using plastic blocks stuck together and formed by bandsaw and handtools, and NOT the dreaded 3D printing or using any CAD designs. The parts used to build the master were as cheap as chips - just the time element of shaping the plastic blocks was the biggest expense for the model maker. (I really do wish that people would read things through thoroughly before setting the world on fire).

As for marketing, the models were all paid for in advance so that quantities were priced accordingly pro-rata.

When you consider that JLTRT, DJH and other major manufacturers have other main business lines that subsidise the production of O gauge models then G3 becomes almost a non-starter for expensive 3D and CAD designed locomotives. Thus you go back to wooden formers and ply bodies for the masses. That does not mean that cast cabs and other sundries would not be of use to home builders.

In the case of the LMS twins I think you have picked a great locomotive with lots of pre-nat interest, but a complete so and so to build due to the considerable amount of detail required. I think that both Dave and Ralph have a significant point to make in choosing a locomotive that effects an easy, relatively quick and economical build. I personally have differences of opinion on what materials I am choosing to use on mine, but their logic is sound. Personally speaking I hold Dave's 'Kinder Scout' in very high regard in this respect, and it looks like Ralph is quickly closing in on Dave with his model of 'Ixion'.

The Chris Barron Peak and its derivatives amongst the four builders lurking here offers a slab sided locomotive with an easily constructed bodyshell, and easily constructed flat plate bogies. The Chris Barron Class Forty bogies follow suit.

And as Dave has found out, the Barron ICo-CoI design has a fantastic track holding capability up to and over a scale 200MPH!