G3 Article in MRJ

[Derek King]

Good to see that Gauge 3 is included in the latest edition (#212) of Model Railway Journal, UK's premier Fine Scale modelling magazine, with a short article by Steve Cook on his weathering of the Mike Williams kit for the LNWR Dia 1 wagon (as seen previously on this Forum).

I believe that this is an audience we need to develop further, and therefore it was a shame that the article was not accompanied with the inclusion of an advert for the Society.

Derek.

[MikeWilliams]

Well done Steve - and thank you!

Thanks to Derek for pointing it out too - I'll buy a copy tomorrow.  I've tried repeatedly to get into MRJ but although I've known the management since the start (my father's layout was in the launch issue No.0) they keep saying that G3 is not their target audience.  Thanks to Steve we've got in via the back door and hopefully can build on that.

If anyone has suitable material which is finescale and also of interesting to the smaller scale modellers please run it past their editorial team.

Mike

[Traininvain]

So far as articles in the model rail press are concerned, MRJ is the zenith - brilliant Cookie, well done. Now is time to put on our thinking hats to get more in there.

Ian

[Steve Cook]

Thanks for the positive comments gents 

As for Derek's point about a society advert, I wasn't even aware the article had gone in until the issue was at the printers, too late to inform anybody at the society. Mind you, I haven't seen the final version either...the writing. photos and too-ing and fro-ing took place some 5 months ago and I know Barry made some tweaks. It will be almost as much of a surprise to me when my copy arrives as anyone else!

Steve

[John Candy]

Gauge 3 is a scale undergoing metamorphosis: A lengthy period of transition from being a garden "toy" for the wealthy to a true "modeller's" scale. It in many ways reflects  the processes through which all the smaller scales have passed at some stage, as the expectations and standards of its devotees have been raised. Catalysts along the route have been the growing distinction between the passenger-hauling 2.5 inch gauge enthusiasts and those preferring the "scenic" model route and the availability of "quality" kits and "home-builder" parts from a number of suppliers. Until recently G3 was perceived by most as the preserve of model engineers and those prepared to accept (sometimes gross) compromises in accuracy/authenticity for the sake of a particular mode of traction and control. This is all changing with the "new breed" of G3 modellers who are proving that it is a scale which (in terms of realism and accuracy to prototype) can stand comparison with the best the smaller scales can offer.

It is unlikely that it will achieve (in the short term at least) the same popularity as the other "garden" scales for reasons of cost and available space (most modern houses ...in the UK at least...have very small gardens) but there is growing recognition of the attractions of G3.

Whether this can be sustained over a long period (or whether indeed interest in model railways of all scales) depends upon a new generation having at least two qualities : The first is an interest in railways and the other "handicraft" skills. The first requirement may well be dependent upon the survival of the preserved railways to generate interest (but that very survival itself depends upon "skills" which are in decline in "post industrial" Britain where such skills are generally no longer taught in schools).

The survival of model railways as a hobby has been a subject of debate over several decades (in the face of competition from more hi-tech distractions) but to date it has (for more than 40 years) survived the elimination of mainline steam traction, which itself had been predicted to sound the "death knell" of interest in railways.

John

[cabbage]

Quote:

Gauge 3 is a scale undergoing metamorphosis

UnQuote:

No -it is not. What has happened, as always happens in any environment, is that there comes a tipping point at which the "meme" in this case "Gauge 3" -reaches the public notice. I tried to build Gauge 3 models at my old house but because of topology I had to build 16mm scale models. My garden has 32mm and 63.5mm track work. This reflects my personal taste in scales and gauges and has nothing to do with the availability of "quality" or "home builder"parts.

I do not consider myself to be a Mechanical or Model Engineer of any description.

Quote:

those prepared to accept (sometimes gross) compromises in accuracy/authenticity for the sake of a particular mode of traction and control.

UnQuote:

I don't know of anyone who could POSSIBLY make four V8 Diesel engines and two 4 cylinder Diesel engines to a bore and stroke of 2.3 x 4.971mm. So I used ONE cylinder, not even a Diesel engine, but a Glow Engine at that, of 4.5CC. The torque convertor is vastly over scale. But don't let the months of design maths and trial prototype experiments bother you... 

As to control systems I would like to see any one get their fingers near the exhaust stack of the gas turbine loco -the stainless steel nimonic alloy GLOWS.... It also runs on a mixture of 25% 2 stroke oil and 75% diesel oil and is 95% larger than the original and NO -it doesn't run on powdered coal either! The impellar blades are hand carved from wood and are hand balanced to 60,000RPM.

I am one of the "New Breed" of Gauge 3 model builders. When I have built the PRR GG-1 you are welcome to check the number rivets on the body work -which will be absolutely prototypically correct as to position and number....

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Ralph....welcome back!

I don't disagree that the "tipping point" is when the scale came to public notice but you have to ask why/how it came to notice.

It would not have happened in the "early days" when G3 was exclusively a garden pursuit of the wealthy.
What has brought it to notice is the increased involvement of the "new breed", through which it has evolved in to a scale where skilled modellers (as opposed to the wealthy ....buy anything you need..... devotee or the engineer who makes everything himself) have developed exhibition layouts and built scale models which have appeared on the exhibition circuit and in magazines (and on the internet). This is the transformation (metamorphosis) to which I was referring.

Perhaps my choice of wording "compromises in accuracy/authenticity for the sake of a particular mode of traction and control." was not sufficiently specific : The intention had been to convey the meaning that the resulting models were not a true likeness of the originals as a consequence of the engineering requirements of the type of propulsion in use. After all, a great many of the models are battery/electrically powered with radio control...which is obviously not authentic....but the resulting model does look like a realistic representation of the original.

Regards,
John.

[IanT]

Gauge '3' has always been a wide church John and most certainly not just "a garden pursuit of the wealthy".

It has been true (until recently) that if you wanted to run live steam - you either had to buy an engine (second hand or a new commission) or build it yourself. Some large sums have exchanged hands but this isn't always the case either. Whilst we certainly do have a few members who could be described as being very well off, we also have always had a lot more who are clearly not. And it's never made any difference anyway.

My experience has always been that members are united in their common interest in G3 (some being skilled engineers and some not) and frankly "wealth" had very little to do with it.

With the advent of GRS it became easier to "model" in G3 - rather than having to "engineer" in it.

Nothing to do with wealth per se (although I do know some very wealthy 'modellers') Much more to do with a love of the Gauge.

Regards,

Ian T

[John Candy]

Ian,

I think the "timescale" I applied when writing the post is rather longer than that being assumed.
I would have thought that up until the 1960s (if not later) anyone possessing a "large scale" model railway (of any gauge) would have had to be "well off".
Going back to the immediate post-war era, a model railway in any scale would have been a "luxury" most would not have been able to afford.

My "metamorphosis" comment was intended to cover a period of half a century, with the final phase being in the present, where the "new breed" (with their requirement for scale accuracy) is capturing the attention of a new audience (through the media of magazines and the internet).

Regards,
John.

[cabbage]

What you have also forgotten is the fact that the modern goals of garden railway modelling are not those of the inter wars and post war years... The books I normally use  quite naturally assume that the builder will be using steam locomotives and have a complete circuit for running them around on.

Quote:

A race track for steam locomotives

Unquote:

With the advent of modern traction and electrically powered steam outline locomotives the emphasis has shifted to "operations" rather than "observations" of the garden railway. This has given rise  to the use of "out and back" and "straight run" layouts that are far more suited to the modern garden. Very few people can afford the large gardens required by a true scale 8 chains curve... If you examine the G3 locos that people are building then they are of flexible short wheelbase design I think that I am one of the few people actually building large locos. But I too am stuck with the maximum radius that I can manage -a scale 3.3 chains at G3 and 6.49 Chains at 7mm. Thus although they may be large, the axle plan means they are well suited to tight curves (2-D0-2 and C+C etc).

When I started out on this route back in 1997 it was a case of "someone knew someone who might know someone who could have seen something that was possibly a Gauge 3 layout". Nowadays when my son is home from school he has a "tag along" or two and they run my locos in the garden while it is still light before homework...

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Ralph's phrase "Operations rather than observation" nicely sums up one of the major components of the requirements of the "new breed" and the "metamorphosis".

It is not only the visual authenticity of the locomotive and rolling stock models themselves but the setting in which they are displayed and operated ...... the shift is towards the type of operation practised by scale modellers in the smaller scales rather than the "toy train" effect of  endlessly "belting around in circles".

In times past, when a garden line occasionally appeared in the "Railway Modeller" (I am referring to the 1960s/70s since when I have not taken that magazine) it was of little or no interest to me simply because of the crude standards and method of operation.

Regards,
John.

[454]

Operations and observation. As a non-steam G3'er and an operational devotee one observation I have made is the complete take over and cessation of operations as soon as a steam loco is launched onto the track (there maybe exceptions here so don't flame me). My observation is that whilst trains are being operated, i.e. marshalled properly, shunted sedately, doing station stops and responding to signals, returning to where they originated via the track back to the fiddle yard, there is a mode of operation which seems to defeat the realism aspect we are attempting to achieve from the scale image and rivet counting aspect.
After all it is not just the model making aspect and realism reproduction in miniature of the real thing that is being captured, it is the operation and presentation and conduct on the track which often shatters illusions of realism. Sure the steamer may be fired up in a steaming bay, or even behind the scenes at the fiddleyard end, but please steam men please please when your beautifully detailed spot on beautiful loco is running out of chuff, anticipate this and call an end to operation and stop in the station, uncouple, run light engine back to the steaming bay whilst there is enough steam to do so. Do not wait for the inevitable but  GIVE WAY to another loco ready to launch onto the layout or circuit. Realism is not just rivets and details present or or criticising the mishaped, sized or inaccurate, it is disciplined railway operation setting an example to onlookers. My witness of events at G3 layouts has been on occasions of errant steamers which TAKE OVER for longer than necessary, sometimes due to inexperience, or just slight unservicability of the loco. Then it expires mid circuit after numerous laps. But when rescue time is eventually decided as it is realised this loco is going no further, rather than send out a pilot loco wrong line to tow it all back, I have seen locos lifted off the track after what seems an endless amount of trackside fruitless rescusitaion. Come on guys, please let us try to be real, the models look real, let us not break the illusion in our half inch to the foot little world. The guys who run their locos like real ones I have no probs with. I mention no names but their operation is an example to us all.

454
Derby

[blagdon]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, before this post erupts into a steam v. non-steam propulsion slanging match, can we all just remeber this is a HOBBY. As a member of ten years and more I have always seen the Society as a mixture of many different interests. Anne and I run battery powered locos; those who know us will know that with my eyesight and Anne's shakey hands, live steam operation would have everydody running for cover!

While we prefer branchline type operations, if someone wants to run an unfitted goods at speeds greater than Eurostar round a contiuous layout, then as long as they don't damage others stock and layouts, good luck to them.

Ian the Gauge '3' Pirate

[John Candy]

Let's also remember that the majority of the garden lines which are open to G3 Society members are owned by live steam enthusiasts!!

My comments in this thread were initially to give my personal view on how we have reached the stage where the magazine publishers (and more particularly those with a slant towards "scale modelling") are taking an interest in G3 and treating it as a modellers' scale rather than a model engineering gauge.
It is not the case that live steam is "taboo" in the realms of scale modelling as perceived by MRJ and similar publications.......it is the way in which it is executed which determines whether a particular model meets the standards required to pass muster.... there are plenty of non-live steam models in all scales which do not make the grade.

As Ian (Blagdon) says, each to his own and let's not start a war.

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

I've followed this thread with interest and agree with all the major points.  But, in my experience, most garden railway owners seek to run live steam trains in a realistic and prototypical manner, and speed.  Part of the attraction of live steam is that its not 100% predictable and therefore total realism is not always achieved.

I will never forget sitting at Alan Marsden's line with my ear at rail level six inches from the embankment at the end of the girder bridge and watching, hearing, smelling and feeling a Mike Pavie pacific pass by at a scale 30moh or so.  You do actually hear the rails sing as it approaches and feel the heat from the fire as it passes.

Iove the control of electric and I love the feel of steam.  Why do people have to invent differences between the two which don't exist?

Mike