Getting started in Gauge 3 (how to encourage newcomers young and old)

[andrewfoster]

A Midland "Spinner" would be very nice and would possibly sell well (as might a "single" from any of the other companies).

Regards,
John.

It's an intriguing thought. The Triang 00 gauge Caledonian No 123 enjoyed considerable success many years ago; enough for Hornby to revive it recently for a while. It's a very attractive engine, especially in the Caledonian blue livery. It generally hauled light trains because of its relatively low tractive effort and limited adhesion, and it's not a mechanically complex as a model. It could appeal to the grandparent market that remembers it running in the sixties, and many more will have seen it in its various museum locations. It will soon have revived celebrity status when it goes on display in the new Glasgow Transport Museum - a good time to launch a model. I think I've talked myself into it!

But there must be a reason why the big manufacturers generally stay away from Scottish prototypes, and it has to be taken seriously.

Andrew

[cabbage]

Ok,

Instead of saying what our starter loco should be -let us ask -what should it be capable of doing?

I think the general consensus is some form of 0-6-0 chassis -with side rods for visual interest.

What sits on top can either be a shell that is a steam or diesel or even electric outline.

It has to be able to take 2.4m radius curves. This gives us maximum axle spacing of 80mm with 1mm of central axle float or 90mm of axle spacing with 2mm of central axle float.

We only need to spring the central axle if we cut all the flanges to 2.3mm.

It will be powered by electric motor(s) and that power supply is either on board batteries or external DC supply. Internal PSU raises problems with space and shielding for Rx etc. External PSU raises the problems of wheel isolation and pickup problems.

Drive chain can be plastic rather than metal for ease of replacement. The motor(s) should be simple to find, easy to fit and inexpensive for replacement.

Is it better to assemble kits or design a specific item for use as a starter loco.

Once we have been through this sequence -we have to find something that fits.

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Ralph,

Should I take that as an offer to JOIN the project?

John.

[cabbage]

YES!

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Great!

Thanks,
John.

[cabbage]

Having consulted my catalogues, sat down with a large cup of coffee,  several glasses of tea, cooked and eaten lunch, I now feel in a position to start work...

Starting from the basic premise that everything has to be bullet-proof and then some(!)

This has to use one central motor with a reduction gear box and the power has to be passed to other axles to remove any strain on the drive rods. Ideally the motor has to have 5 poles for optimum use using a variable PWM or PWAM DC supplies or 3 poles for a simple serial supply or fixed HF PWM DC supply. A candidate for the motor and gearbox could be the MFA 980D series. This would have to be mounted vertically or inclined as it is too long for the maximum axle spacing. This gives us a 6mm output shaft and if we use 6mm axles then we have a wide choice of gears to play with. The  24 Volt version is possibly the better. The 24 Volt version also has a rear 10mm extension shaft that a flywheel could be grafted onto. If the flywheel was fitted then it would have to be mounted vertically or there would be severe precessional problems whilst cornering...

At 20 Watts throughput  it is, (for me), a border line case (!) whether to force cool the motor casing or use a clip on external finned heat sink to the case and use conductive cream. The finned heat sink is the simplest and quietest -but it is not the most efficient in an enclosed environment. It might be possible to use the "Magnus Effect" off the spinning flywheel fitted to a 24 Volt motor to draw air over the fins -or simply to carve slots to produce a fan.

I would also look at force cooling the on board electronics for the on-board PSU. Choices at the 24Volt range are the MACH and the Syren. I have never used a MACH but I have two Syren units - which have regeneration for prolonging battery life.

Time for more tea!

regards

ralph

[midnight miller]

Hello All

For a quick ready to run loco , How about the tram engines successor the diesel tram engine A.K.A. The Drewery 04 with small window cab and side skirts .
Resin bonnet , Etched Cab etc and also I believe part of the Fat Controllers fleet on the Isle of Sodor known as Mavis



                                                   John

[John Candy]

Flashback to December 2009

http://lakes-pages.com/gauge3.co.uk/G3Forum/index.php?topic=159.msg934#msg934

At that stage nobody took me up on the suggestion / offer but perhaps it is worthy of further consideration?
The Wisbech & Upwell 1952 version of the Drewry would certainly disguise the dual gauge option, in the same way that the GRS kit of the Y6 would do for the steam predecessor.

John.

[Derek King]

Looking at the Wild Swan "Wisbech & Upwell Tramway" booklet today re. the Tram option, I had the same thought re. the class 04, but would suggest that the 63.5 gauge version's wheels, rods, etc. are accurately represented so could be used without skirts.

Derek.

[Moonraker]

I just went back to read John Candy's posting which started this discussion. He was proposing an R-T-R "train set" to bring people into the hobby. It seems to me that this proposal is a non-starter for two reasons:

• To be priced at a realistic level, the train set will need to be manufactured in commercially viable volumes, probably in China, and the market does not seem to be anywhere near large enough for this to happen.
• Gauge 3 enthusiasts, and presumably those entering the hobby, tend to be passionate about particular railways and have no interest in other railways. This would make it impossible to select a prototype which the majority of members would want to buy.

I think the solution is to manufacture a generic 0-6-0 chassis kit for battery powered radio control. Such a kit would consist of frames, sidebars, wheels, gearbox, motor, battery pack holder, charging socket, controller, 2.4GHz receiver and (okay, I know I have a commercial interest) a soundcard. The kit would be screw together with no soldering and would make extensive use of commercial components. A simple cam would be needed on one axle so that an accurate chuff sound could be achieved on steam versions.

Once such a chassis existed then it would be probably be commercially attractive for people like GRS to produce one piece, resin body kits for a variety of locos which modellers can then kit bash and detail. In G Scale, GRS already do this using LGB and American R-T-R chassis. Alternatively, members could make their own bodywork using their chioce of material.

I have a lot of experience of this type of chassis and would be happy to design and cost a kit if there is any interest.

Regards
Peter

[cabbage]

Hmmm...

Peter,

I do seem to remember uploading an couple of articles to IanT about the use of modular systems to ease the construction of model locomotives(!)

What I had in mind as well, was a modular chassis that would accept a number of bodies that could be bolted on top. Rather in the same manner that my son changes his bodies on his 1/10 scale R/C car, a builder would buy a chassis and then fabricate the top or TOPS... I think the first thing to do is to examine what locomotives it might be possible to construct. The suggestions so far are rectangular "boxes" the dimensions of other locos that we might have to squeeze in bits with might be a good experiment to start with...

In short which locomotives could we not build?

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

OK here is rough PNG for you to play with.



regards

ralph

[454]

Looking at the Wild Swan "Wisbech & Upwell Tramway" booklet today re. the Tram option, I had the same thought re. the class 04, but would suggest that the 63.5 gauge version's wheels, rods, etc. are accurately represented so could be used without skirts.
Derek.

For cheap & cheerful, my first loco attempt is depicted in the members photo gallery. It is a tramway skirted freelance Hudswell Clarke diesel and is a perfect companion to my Y6, both originate from GRS and have that Wisbech & Upwell ambiance. Of course my grandson calls them Toby & Mavis. I made the diesel with skirts to make tramway operation look realistic but also it was a convenience to cover up the wheels of the regauged USA Trains motor bogie.
R/C is installed and 11 x AA NiMH cells. Of course it will not satisfy the scale purists but it is the motive power and functionality that is important here. This little loco provides most useful shunting horsepower and being "short" it does not take up a lot of space on a G3 indoor layout. It also goes around tight curves in the track.

For a starter set idea has anybody seen Mark P's (Blackgang) regauged Thomas and Annie/Clarabel set operate? Rather than launch into making locos from scratch how about the idea of providing a regauged commercial set as an option to getting into Gauge 3? After all it's just a matter of re-engineering the axles.

For starter and entry level we oldies have grandkids and this should be the appeal to propagate the hobby into the future. The pleasure and smiles on their little faces makes it all worthwhile when they spot things they recognise.
They do not see rivets and wheelbases, liveries and periods, they see what they recognise and if it moves they like it. If they can control it themselves they like it even better!

Hope I have not been too heretical.

Happy BH Monday
Dave 454

[Derek King]

Yes like Dave, one of my initial thoughts on this subject was that a simple RTR (or screw together) chassis for Thomas would be the cheapest "starter" option, but John didn't seem keen on this toy market, so didn't raise it.

The advantage of this way in, would be that if the wheelbase proved to be common to other locos then it would also be a good introduction to scratchbuilding your own body, or as has already been said, GRS (or others) may be encouraged to produce resin bodies to fit.

Another option would be to produce a 0-4-0 chassis to fit the GRS Peckett to encourage them to continue to produce the body parts for this engine (and other bodies to suit??). Again it would be also useful for those wanting to scratch build there own small shunter.

But Gents, can we please also not forget those who prefer 2-rail pick-up and ensure that the wheels are supplied insulated. There must be a market out there for this method of operation as GRS produce all the engines this way!

Derek.

[John Candy]

The current dilemma seems to be "toy" or scale model.

The toy will appeal to children and perhaps beginners in model railways, as opposed to converts from other gauges.
As has been pointed out, true railway enthusiasts / modellers generally have an allegiance to one particular railway or period, so "one size fits all" will not work.

We need to produce something which will appeal to the widest possible audience.

Whereas a "toy" will not appeal to the "scale convert" or seasoned modeller, a scale model would be acceptable to the "toy" market.

I am still of the opinion that the GRS Y6 with the simple USA Trains (45mm or G3 drive) is the cheapest/easiest option and will appeal to the "toy" market as "Toby".

Similarly, the Drewry 204HP 0-6-0DM  has similar attractions : Skirts to disguise a simplified drive arrangement for a "cheap" version for the "toy" market or a scale version with exposed 0-6-0 motion for the "serious" market.

John.