Getting started in Gauge 3 (how to encourage newcomers young and old)

[John Candy]

For some while I have been suggesting that a G3 "train set" is required to compete for the attention of those starting out in large scale/garden railways when they are investigating LGB, Bachmann and other G45 products.

The problem with G3 is that unless you are an experienced modeller with the confidence to spend quite a bit of cash on kits (and have the time and skills to construct those kits) then LGB, etc. are the easy option and more so if you have young family members who are impatient to see the trains running.

Assembling all the components for an operational G3 railway can be time-consuming and frustrating with the need to trawl through the lists of numerous suppliers (many or whom do not advertise in those places where most would think of looking) and then probably still not finding all you need (as an example,  scale buffer stops in G3 are as rare as hens' teeth).

What is needed to attract a "migration" to G3 (and in consequence greater "trader" confidence to produce more items) is a "turnkey" solution. 
This is an age where everything is expected to be "on tap" if it is to succeed.

Cost is an issue but not a major one (just look at the prices of LGB) it is availability and convenience that is the deterrent.

What, in my view, is required (and I believe several others share that view to a lesser or greater extent) is a "train set" which is RTR (ready-to-run) straight out of the box.

We need a RTR loco, a few RTR wagons plus some track and a power supply priced at below 1000GBP, just like a "grown up" Hornby set, suitable as a Christmas present for a youngster or as a starter pack for someone either moving "upscale" or starting afresh in later life. The main pre-requisite is that there need be no modelling experience required to assemble the starter pack.

At the Dereham exhibition I was discussing this with John Witts and Mark Thatcher and we all share this view.
I noticed at the same exhibition a professional modeller who hand-builds locos, carriages and wagons to order in plastic. Although most of his display consisted of 4mm and 7mm items, it did include a LSWR brake van in G3.

I considered it worthwhile sounding him out on the possibility of producing a G3 0-6-0T loco (RTR) for sub 600GBP.
The discussion revolved around the possibility of the Society providing the running chassis parts (which I roughly costed out at 250 max.) with the plastic boiler and cab/bunker unit being hand-built to fit and the loco supplied RTR for an additional sum no greater than 350GBP.

There was great interest shown in the project an offer was forthcoming to build a sample in order to properly cost the bodywork aspect.
Before this progresses any further, the Committee needs to discuss the practicalities and the design aspects need to be worked out.

My own view is that a GWR prototype would be the most attractive proposition from a sales viewpoint (yes, I can hear the groans!) but there are also practical reasons for this.

A saddle tank would add variety to what is already available and the GWR 2021 class was originally built as a saddle tank. Why the 2021 class?
Well, GRS produce the pannier tank rebuild which means that wheels, buffers and other parts are already available.

Why choose a "largish" loco rather than a small 0-4-0ST?
The L&YR "Pug" has beeen suggested but my view is that we should choose a design which has the potential to be offered to established G3 modellers (and even as a starter pack loco) the option of  battery power and radio control which would be difficult to accommodate in too small a loco.

I have started the ball rolling, so now let's hear your views!

[cabbage]

Errrmmm....

I know I retire next month -but my brain is not quite dead yet... I would be fascinated to see some figures because it seems that your level of costing is vastly different to mine!!!

£250 for just the CHASSIS???

I am a little busy at the moment -but give me a couple of hours to sit down and do some costings. There are two locos that would fit the bill for this -the Clayton (class 17) and the Western (class 52). The former is freight only -but visually very appealing the latter is freight and passenger but simply lovely. A third loco could be The Metro loco(?) "Sarah Siddons" and "Sherlock Homes" are still around!

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Hi Ralph.

I discussed steam versus diesel with the "body-builder" chap and he was adamant that a steam loco is simpler (and thus cheaper) to build than a diesel or electric.

My chassis costing was based as follows:-

60 for laser cut frames, coupling rods,running plate, spacers and fixings ; 80 for motor/gearbox from GRS ; 100 for for Slaters wheelsets plus a bit for couplings and any other minor bits.

Mike has since looked at my calculations and believes them to be about right but commented that we might save a bit by not using Slaters wheels and shopping around for a motor and using small manufacturers for other parts.

Remember, we are talking about ease of assembly for the supplier (the final product is to be RTR) and any small cost cutting in components could lead to a greater escalation in assembly cost.

Look forward to seeing your proposals.

Regards,
John.

[IanT]

GRS has (from time to time) offered their RTR GWR tank with a couple of wagons and a brake van for about 680 pounds (or so - I forget the exact price). I do seem to remember they had this deal at Reading ALSM a couple of years ago when John Witts had 'Warton Road' next to the GRS stand. I'm not sure how many they sold but it was an attractive offer and I think they did sell a few. My main point is that "price point" is not the only factor in any project like this, although it certainly is one of them.

If this was a commercial venture, I would immediately be asking who the "Audience" for this "Product" was going to be? Indeed, it would be interesting to know what the 'profile' of the people who DID purchase the GRS bundle was?

From the description it seems they are people who are a) going to make a fairly large impulse purchase,  b) have no previous modelling skills and c) are willing to accept a pre-defined solution (e.g. a GWR based one).

So I have to ask - what is the size of this audience? And perhaps of more importance, how are we going to reach them (e.g. communicate with them)? The 'Field of Dreams' approach ("If we build it, they will come") very rarely works in my experience.

My personal opinion is that the Gauge '3' marketplace is already developing at a pretty good pace. The range of G3 "products" available now is markedly better than just five years ago. This is beginning to develop into a virtuous circle, in that G3 is attracting more interest from Modellers and this increased interest is (in turn) attracting more attention from the 'Trade'. There may well be ways of encouraging this development but (I'm sorry, in my view) it won't be by trying to target the kind of people described above. The G3 "market" is simply not mature enough at this time for this kind approach – and anyway, we have suppliers like GRS already offering it.

Far better to first well define your target audience(s) and think about the 'barriers to entry' for these specific groups. I would argue that this will be far more effective than trying to "short circuit" the natural development of the G3 marketplace. For instance, what will be attractive to existing 16mm or G scale modellers? How can we attract experienced 4mm Modellers? Are there experienced Model Engineers who would like to down-scale gauge and do scenic modelling in the garden?

Having said all of this – I have no problem AT ALL with any initiatives that support G3 (like the one below). It's just that I believe there are 'easier' people out there to convert to our cause and much more effective ways of doing it.

I'll await the "Flaming" I now expect to get!   

regards,

IanT

P.S. And for the very young - the most obvious (and appropriate solution ) is a simple "Thomas" conversion?  What a nice Christmas present.

[John Candy]

Ian,

No "flaming" .....it is a reasoned approach and I respect your views.

The fact is that (apart from the GRS Prairie which is quite expensive at the standard price of c.1100GBP) there is no RTR loco unless you commission one from a professional (either scratch-built or kit-built).

I am not expecting such "train sets" to sell like hot cakes.... a few p.a. would be a start but it would reach out to an audience who would otherwise shun G3 out of hand as being impractical.

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

Back in 1969, and having been brought up with EM Gauge, I was very taken by 7mm, but the push I needed to start was the Tri-ang Big Big train - ready to run, cheap, quite decent representation of a real engine and stock which could be improved over time.  The fact that they were slightly obscure prototypes was only a minor drawback.

I think the same could work for Gauge 3, but whether I represent a large number of typical potential converts I have no idea.

Mike

[Derek King]

I have to agree with Ian, we have to assess our target market, and though I started in G0 with a Lima "train set", is a circuit of 'set track' really practical in G3 in the average size home?

As Ian states, for the youngsters, Thomas (and Percy) are the obvious choice, so as a quick starter how about a supply of bodies and a simple 2-rail pick-up RTR chassis. I would suggest we stick to Slater's wheels so that chassis can also be used for more advanced modeller to scratch-build his own body, thus giving a bigger market.

But I also believe if we want to attract more modellers to G3, we have to show that it is practical to build a small (shunting puzzle) layout in the average home/garage or garden - the type of layout that is very popular as an entry level to G0 and G1. Therefore I'm sure that there is a market for a RTR small 2-rail pick-up industrial loco, L&Y Pug or something similar. There will not be many out there that will suddenly decide to build a large Steam and/or Radio Controlled garden layout in G3, but once they are hooked with a smaller layout, it is something they can aspire to.

Derek.

[John Candy]

Hello Derek,

My target market would be those who opt for LGB/Bachmann G scale.
If in ,say, "00" gauge there were no Hornby or British outline Bachmann models, then we would see a pre-dominance of continental or North American outline layouts in that scale (the person requiring a British "00" model would be in a similar situation to the follower of G3).

I believe that, given the ready availability of British outline G (3) scale RTR models that a proportion (if not the majority) would prefer to have a "familiar" British outline model rather than a "foreign" scene.

After all, Aster and Bachmann have been testing the water for some while in British outline in gauge 0, gauge 1 and (in the case of Bachmann) gauge 3.

It could be argued that if Aster and Bachmann had not entered the G1 market, then G1 would not be where it is today.

I agree "Thomas" has its possibilities but again it requires conversion and would certainly not be my "cup of tea".
A railway enthusiast father, using a son as an excuse to buy a train set, may well prefer a prototypical model to a "fantasy" model.

Regards,
John.

[cabbage]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you -but you know how it is sometimes...

John.

Here is your rough costings for the Chassis for a Western Locomotive and could be used for frankly any C0-C0 locomotive in this sort of area. The Module 1 and Facet Bogie are designed to be cut from flat steel plate with a hacksaw -yes it is a "Kitchen Sink Engineering" design. Thus it requires nothing that could not be found in a normal workshop. A light engineering shop with a power bandsaw would make light(!) work of it... The parts are also designed to be Arc welded together -something that would be done outside and not by the Kitchen Sink with wife and child around.

The bodywork would either be made by extrusion or more likely nowadays simply printed on a RepRap. I have worked out that it would need circa 1.5Kg of ABS "feed" and take around 25 hours to "print" at normal resolution (0.5mm). It would be done in two sections and then stuck together.

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/western1.pdf
http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/western2.pdf

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Ok -having eaten!

John.

Here is your rough costing for the "Clayton".

http://www.cabbagepatchrailway.co.uk/mls/clayton1.pdf

I know that I have used the same wheels for the two locomotives and thus they sit slightly "down" and slightly "up" respectively. The BR spec said that there should be no more than 1 inch diameter difference between wheels on the same bogie. The RSA 37 wheel comes in at 3 feet 6 inches... I can live with it!!! If I was going to produce modern outline diesels and electrics I would produce a wheel that was 3 feet 8 inches.

regards

ralph

[andrewfoster]

Just back from the workshop, and very conscious of labour content and its cost... The bill of materials for a Clayton is a starting point, but would need much fleshing out, depending crucially on quantities, manufacturing processes, and the many other factors that drive the overheads and therefore the selling price. It might work by outsourcing the finished components and finding someone to assemble and package the final set. Profit? Yes - you have to make a living, too.

The most basic piece of information needed for costing is the size of the probable market. Is it hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands? Will a department store or a mail order catalogue pick it up for Christmas? You have to ask them, and then get a commitment. I have to admit that one of my products bombed because the market research turned out to be a mirage when the product was ready. Everyone loved it, but not enough of them actually wanted to own one. 

It will not be easy to reach the general public with a G3 train set, though I like the idea. Advertising in the established model railway press might be like preaching to the converts, so I wonder if the full size railway magazines before the Christmas frenzy begins would be good targets?

My own inclination would be for a steam prototype, though I don't know about those big shiny green things with brass bits that used to populate the bottom left hand corner of the country... My favourites are mostly from north of the border.

Andrew

[cabbage]

I think the "starter set" will more likely be a series of modules to assemble a number of locos from -rather than a specific loco. The Society is around 200 members and to be honest I doubt more than 6 or 7 of them would want any 1 particular loco... What we need are versions of IP Engineerings "De Luxe 4wd Chassis" and "Budget Chassis" that can be hacked, cobbled or bashed into providing what the builder requires. There also needs to be a G3 Equivalent of the Unit Steam Engine -even Matthew can put one of those together(!) If there is some form of "starter set" then it either has to be available in "instalments" or "modules" that can be purchased as and when the builder requires them.

The B.O.M.for both the Western and the Clayton took only about 1 1/2 hours and then 10 minutes respectively, which shows how once the modules are in place it is pretty easy to "hand roll" a locomotive spec.

It will be interesting to see how the "Cheap and Cheerful" fairs against the "Costly Laser Cutter"

regards

ralph

PS I come from a heavy steam background a RR class 15A, an SAR/SAS GMAM, and an EAR class 18 are "normal sized locos" for me!!!

[Richard T]

This is all very interesting, but I think a bit naive.

Don't forget these new converts are going to need some track, not many of us have a house big enough to have an indoor G3 layout - maybe the garden then ?
A yard of Cliff's track is £11.00 a turnout £95.00 ( do a few sums )

G3 is a specialist area of model railways, G1 less so, but both Bachmann and Accucraft have pulled out of the G1 RTR market, the market is now supplied by short run brass loco's with a 30% price increase in the offing.

So we are talking short run G3 kit built or rather expensive scratchbuilt/commision alternatives for a train set - for rolling stock and loco's - I don't see any alternative.

From a personal viewpoint ( and with an unhidden agenda ) I have produced two G3 wagon kits and a G3 Ruston 48DS kit, most of the patterns are made and the majority of the castings  are available, the correct wheels are in the pipeline and the kits will be available in the not too distant future. I could build them as RTR but with a full time job, that would take the fun away - would you buy a Ruston for £500 ?

As you can imagine these have been produced for me in the first instance and it is my investment, I am fully aware there is no profit in this venture, mainly because of the prototypes
( no pretty branch line engines here ) and the fact that the techniques ( etched nickel silver and brass ) are not to everyones taste.

I view this thread with interest.

Regards
Richard

[Moonraker]

With only 200 members and perhaps the same number again of "interested onlookers" the G3 market is far too small for a commercial company to produce a R-T-R trainset at any sensible price. It just wouldn't be worth their time.

The only way it could happen is if such a trainset was made for the toy market. To give an example, a few years ago I purchased a Gauge 1 "Wild West Train Set" from Toys-R Us. It cost eighty pounds and consisted of a battery powered loco (with sound and smoke), tender, three wagons and a caboose plus a circuit of plastic track.

These trainsets do two things for us. Firstly they stimulate an interest in our scale amongst people who buy it as a toy and secondly they give us enthusiasts a basis for kit bashing.

Peter

[John Candy]

At the moment, I am sitting back and watching the reaction to the original suggestion.

At this point I would comment that, with regard to the cost and "space" aspects, there are vast numbers of LGB followers who have no problem spending considerable sums of money on locos and stock nor finding the space to run it.

The aim would be to get them to follow G3 British prototypes, rather than Continental / American.
There is not likely to be a mass conversion from LGB but if the option is before them when starting out.....you never know.

John.