Getting started in Gauge 3 (how to encourage newcomers young and old)

[Richard T]

One of the problems with Brandbrights wheels are that they are not insulated, this rather precludes them from two rail pick-up.
Also being coach wheels the drive would rely on the push fit onto the axle, you would need to disassemble them to fit through the bearings and timing pulleys, which won't help the cause.

Your design suggests R/C and battery power, if you need to fit a heat sink to the motor, it implies the efficiency of your drive system is very poor or your speed controller very inefficient.

I dont think I have come across modern motors overheating in loco's, considering the light loads most of them are hauling. Even a pacific pulling 20 bogie coaches around a garden railway would have a motor sized to suit the duty.

[John Candy]

I would state here that my concept is of a TRACK POWERED loco with the OPTION of battery/radio control.

I have since looked at the Brandbright catalogue and see that the RSA37 is a solid disc coach wheel, whereas the BR 0-6-0DM shunters had spoked wheels. The fact that Richard has pointed out that Brandbright wheels are non-insulated does rather rule them out.

I have hopes that the USA Trains wheels may be suitable since they are a fraction of the cost of Slaters (or cast iron machined wheels).

John.

[cabbage]

Well lets ask a question.

Can we stick a brass "hub cap" over the solid steel wheel to give you your spokes?



Brandbright have always supplied me with just wheels and axles for fitting gears with -no problem has been experienced from me on that score



I was going to retain the wheels and then use a sabot (probably of Nylon) to hold the wheel to the axle. I pin/glue/crunch/whatever the sabot to the wheel and the sabot to the axle, (which is a 6mm dia rod), this gives me an insulating layer between the axle and the wheel. But everything is held in position whilst in motion.



USA Trains might not be a suitable source as I would imagine that they conform to the NMRA Gauge 1 profile... (ugh!)

The sabot in this case is Aluminium -rather than Nylon -but the principle is the same...

John -if the design is for a self powered chassis then it makes better economic sense. If the builder requires a track powered version then we don't fit the other parts -but the space and capability are there for both options in the one...

Richard -call it over kill if you like -but I have always cooled my motors and electronics. Maybe I am still not yet used to your cold wet Northern Hemisphere climate!!! I am often accused, (quite rightly I think), of using motors that are too big and power electronics that are too highly rated for the job. My defence is that they haven't burnt out yet!!!

regards

ralph

[Richard T]

I think we have to be clear about producing and selling any relatively high value hobby product.
All of the traders in any scale in the model railway business will not be able to sell poor quality or amateurish products, railway modelers are not that gullible.
They are not going to spend their hard earned disposable income on somebody elses poor excuses for scale models or parts ( I presume we are trying to make scale models ? )

If you care to look at the vast amount of model railway items available, including Gauge 3 products, without exception, the manufacturers have invested a lot of time, skill and money to produce something that fits the bill, and unfortunately we have to pay for that.

The only alternative is to make it yourself or pay someone to make it for you.

Regards

Richard

[John Candy]

I have to agree with Richard that, if we are to proceed, we need to use good quality parts and produce as near a scale model as possible within budget constraints.

If we can used off the shelf parts (such as "USA Trains" wheels and drive trains) which are low cost then that is a way of reducing the cost. The USA Trains are G scale and presumably compatible with Bachmann and the like. Mark Pretious retained the G scale wheels on his Thomas conversion without any problems (it ran around the Ampthill track for long periods and that includes plenty of turnouts and double slips).

Proper spoked wheels with beefy axles are a necessity and, if all else fails, the Slaters 1361 class wheels are about the right size, if expensive.

Apart from the cab roof which is lightly curved and a very slight curve to the bonnet top, all the main body parts of the 05 are either straight or angled so a fold-up construction is possible and if well-designed, with accurate tabs and fold lines, should go together easily and quickly.

This is proposed as a low volume production able to be assembled by a co-operative of volunteer members and not requiring a Chinese factory to churn them out in their thousands.
I don't envisage this finding its way onto the shelves of "Toys-R-Us" although it may be that GRS or another large-scale retailer might be tempted to stock it (even to offer it in kit form for the experienced modeller).
For this to happen it needs to be accurate, for as Richard has said, modellers are not going to be "fobbed off" with a poor compromise.

I am going start another Poll, "Would you buy an 0-6-0 diesel shunter?" with the options of kit or RTR (and a price indication).

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

If wheels are a sticking point it may be worth asking a specialist to turn up a set from steel blanks, and fit insulated bushes.  Yes, I believe they should be spoked, but it would get around the problem and they'd be strong, accurate and to our profile.  It would be embarassing if the G3S marketed wheels which did not conform to their own standards.  I could recommend such a specialist - in fact John met one of his associates a couple of weeks back.

As for etching artwork.  Yes, I'd be happy to do some, but it is sounding more like a complete etched kit to me, including as Richard says the chassis (which could still be compensated or sprung).  That would take some time and is more than the small fabrications (like the cab) that I envisaged.

A pair of laser cut frames?  Depends on the complexity (machine time), but I'd budget for £20 the pair and you may have some change.

Mike

[John Candy]

Just occurred to me to see what is being produced in the smaller scales and the Judith Edge range came to mind, since all manner of steam and small diesel shunters are in the range.

This is the Hunslet "05" kit.... http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/judithedge/kit/129

Some while ago (when we were discussing the diesel kit in conjunction with a previous "Poll") "Traininvain" (Ian Harper) came up with a quote to "upscale" the Judith Edge LMS 350HP shunter.

This is what I said at the time :-
Forum Member 'traininvain' (Society member No.426) obtained a quote from Judith Edge for a kit (body only) based on the LMS Hawthorn Leslie/EE design for a 350HP 0-6-0 diesel electric.
The etched brass body was quoted at 433GBP (that is for etched parts only).
The detail castings, chassis, wheels, etc. would be extra (and the wheels might have to be specially commissioned since they are not same diameter as the BR 08 wheels made by Slaters).

Of the 433GBP, the cost of producing the etching tool was 259GBP and this would be spread across a production batch, bringing down the unit cost.

If 6 Society members were to sign up to the project, the unit cost for body etchings would be circa 220GBP.
How much the wheels, castings,etc. would cost is not known.
Whether the proposed 22thou brass would be thick enough to provide sufficient 'relief' to the detailing is another matter to be examined, since the Judith Edge artwork was designed for 7mm scale.

This current proposal might be worth pursuing along those lines.

John.

P.S. Also from the JE range http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/judithedge/kit/137
the LMS 1932 Hunslet 150HP 0-6-0 No.7051 (this one I would buy).

[Markie]

John writes: I am going start another Poll, "Would you buy an 0-6-0 diesel shunter?" with the options of kit or RTR (and a price indication).

I think the question really is, who would buy an 0-6-0 diesel shunter as part of a starter kit? As I have said before, and Mike also noted, we are not necessarily representative of our target audience - but yes, a little shunter I am sure would be delightful. (Actually now I will go against my sentiments above and say I would buy one.)

However, what I would not buy is anything that needed bits of brass folding, any soldering whatsoever. It really needs to be plug-and-play to encourage the new adopters to get out there and start playing trains out of the box.

I personally would love a little Thomas or Toby, as I live in Emneth and the Wisbech & Upwell tramway used to practically run past my front door.

One final note: one very good reason not to emulate "Thomas" or an associated engine - the licensing deal!

Wilbert Awdry wrote his last 13 "Thomas" books from his study at the Old Vicarage in Emneth, where I currently live. When his descendants wanted to commission a small window in St Edmund's Church next door, they were prevented from doing so, by, I believe, Mattel, who at that time held the licensing rights to the brand and wanted to be paid for the use of the loco's image. The window did eventually go ahead however.

Actually the family makes little if any revenue from the original stories and Wilbert only wrote them for fun in the first instance and was just happy to see them in print. So Bachmann would have paid a significant amount of money to be granted a manufacturing licence, but the society has not! So my advice is stay away or at the very least – proceed with great care, if you choose to go down this road.

Markie

[John Candy]

Markie,

Rest assured, I have not lost sight of my original proposal to end up with a starter set.
The most difficult (and expensive) component to source is going to be the loco.
It needs to appeal to a wide range of tastes to be viable and the option to buy as a kit or RTR will extend that appeal. Those who want RTR would recieve an assembled, painted, RTR loco.

A "Toby" tram can be produced from the GRS Y6 kit which is very easy to assemble (it is powered by a modified "USA Trains" bogie which has been re-gauged by GRS). Wouldn't try to sell it as Toby but as a GER tram loco, leaving the buyer to make their own connection with the Thomas character.

It is my preferred option to produce the RTR loco at low cost (kit is just 219GBP) but it does not seem to be a popular choice judging by the reaction here. They could be built up and painted in just a few hours.

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

John,

Y6 doesn't look like an engine to some people, hence the interest in 04, 05 etc.

Mike

[John Candy]

Mike,

I do agree but the problem at the moment is that hardly anyone has offered to assist with a complete new kit (and a brass kit will take rather more skill and time to assemble than a resin kit).

Plenty know what they would like but it requires a commitment to participate before anything actually gets done!
The fact is that (at the end of the day) the target customers are not the members of this forum although it would be nice if they were to buy one.

At the moment the early LMS 150HP DM shunter scaled up from a Judith Edge kit looks an attractive proposition (it is a Hunslet but a little simpler in design than the 05) particularly as IanH has provided a guide to probable cost with his enquiry about the LMS 350HP DE kit.

John.

[MikeWilliams]

I'm not trying to be argumentative or unsupportive John, but remind he why that is better than the small diesel Richard has already scaled up?

Seems to me that Richard's kit would be much easier and safer because he's already gone through the design heartache, and he's kindly taken much of the cost himself (thanks Richard!)  They are both small etched brass diesels, aren't they?

It would just need somebody - maybe this "cottage industry" that's been mentioned here - to assemble them.  If not, maybe one of the professionals who advertise kit building would quote for doing a batch.

That, at least, would give a budgettory figure to work to, safe in the knowledge that it works.

Mike

[John Candy]

Mike,

I have asbsolutely no objection to Richard producing a batch of locos, it's just that I wasn't aware he had offered.
The only disadvantage of such a small loco is that it has no potential for battery or radio control and Richard has stated that it could only haul a couple of wagons.

I am personally not anxious to produce anything if someone else will do it but if necessary I would cast some parts for a larger diesel.

Regards,
John.

[MikeWilliams]

"I wasn't aware he had offered".  He hasn't . . .  yet!

[Richard T]

What would a "batch" consist of - 6 locos ?
Even with such a small loco I suspect the costs to aquire all parts for six complete locos would be somewhere in the region of £1500, remember that is just for parts, not for the assembly.
I certainly wouldn't be prepared to invest that on the offchance I might sell them. The model railway hobby is full of "prospective customers" who never come up with the money. I have experienced this myself with a range of G1 kits in the past  - so maybe I am a little cynical.

You would have to find some charitable fellow to assemble them for next to nothing -  judging by the percived final selling price, I'm too expensive.

The other point mentioned regarding R/C, I have a prototype 48DS with 10 1700ma NmHi cells in the bonnet with a speed controller and 2.4ghz receiver within the loco with cab clear. So it can be done if you try.
Regarding the haulage capability - I have as yet not tried to stall one with a number of wagons - I shall have a go when I've finished the G1 class 14 I'm busy with at the moment

( how about a class 14 in G3 ? )

Regards
Richard