Getting started in Gauge 3 (how to encourage newcomers young and old)

[Richard T]

Here's my train set

[John Candy]

Richard,

Very nice!
How many can you turn out RTR in a week?
Only joking!!

Regards,
John.

[John Candy]

The current enthusiasm for "Thomas" (and Friends) is a double-edged sword and I think we need to be careful.

While it provides a convenient means of producing a cheap train, we don't want our gauge/scale to be seen by serious modellers as the preserve of "cranks" and our trains as mere toys!

The Society's policy is to attract serious modellers from smaller scales (or even downsizing from larger scales) to convert to G3 (or at least take an interest). They need to be modellers in the true sense and not "buy and run" types, since we have no RTR trains to offer them!

Any serious modeller may well be thinking, "Why take a non-prototypical toy loco and convert it to run on scale track : May just as well leave it to run on non-prototypical 45mm track".

Yes, we want to attract younger people but, seriously, small kids are not going to be buying G3 kits and joining the Society. Yes, maybe "Daddy" will buy them a "Thomas" trainset but (for 99+%?) that will be as far as it goes. For most, the novelty will soon wear off and the trainset will go in the cupboard and other interests (the latest "Wii" or "Playstation" game) will take over.

Probably not going to be a popular view with some members and not necessarily one which I hold but we need to be careful how we project ourselves.
A lot of effort is put into attracting people into G3 and those efforts can easily be destroyed by an ill-considered action.
Even a fleeting impression of G3 as a "toy" scale could, in my view, do untold harm.

Let me draw a parallel with a personal experience.
About 30 years ago, I made my one and only visit to the Nene Valley Railway.
Arrived to find all the locos wearing "faces" and locos being "raced" against each other through the platform roads (God knows what damage all the violent wheelslip did to the connecting rods and main bearings and the emergency stops and sliding to the wheels).
Needless to say I took no photos and have never returned : My wife thinks of it to this day as the place that has "trains with the silly faces".

Probably now have poured fuel on the fire so shall sit back and watch the blaze!!

[MikeWilliams]

Can't disagree John.  In my opinion the most suitable loco would be a small tank engine of which lots were built, widely distributed in the UK and long-lived.  Region, colour, steam or diesel doesn't really matter and Richard.T's set would be very suitable.

Perhaps testing the water could be for Richard to make / have made, a dozen to sell RTR and see what interest they generate?

Mike

[Moonraker]

I would have thought that Thomas was a commercial non-starter because Bachmann have produced one in gauge 1 which is much to close in size to justify a Gauge 3 competitor in the toy market.

The only way you would stand a chance is to add chuffs and whistles, doors closing at start, guards whistle blowing, working lights, battery power, smoke, speech and all the other things which will appeal to our grandchildren.

None of which is any use to us....

Peter

[cabbage]

Richard,

Pardon my curiosity. What is the power train(!) and motor for your little diesel loco? The last time I saw you, there was an 0-4-0 chassis with a central motor and chain drives to the two axles -is it that one?

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

If we were to go for a 204HP Gardner-engined BR shunter with a wheelbase of 4ft 6ins + 4ft 6ins that immediately gives the basis for three accurate models. The BR-built 03, the Drewry-built 04 and the Hunslet 05 (the wheel diameter varied between these classes but 3ft 7ins would sit comfortably under all three).

Those Society members hooked on the IOW as a prototype will know that an 05 went to the IOW when steam was withdrawn, so that should be at least two customers for the kit!

The Hunslet is very "angular" in design when compared with the 03 and 04, which are a bit more "curvaceous".

A brass fold-up cab, a brass running plate (reinforced with a square brass valance) with fold-down buffer beams and steps  plus a fold-up brass bonnet (hood in US terminology) and a cast radiator/ front end would take care of the main body structure. Detailing (cast and / or turned) can then be added and there isn't an awful lot .... buffers, draw hook, air tanks, horn, grab rails, brake pipes and lights are the most prominent features.

How much might the brass components cost (Richard, you have your Ruston to use as a measuring stick)?

Mike, how much for the laser cut frames, coupling rods, fly cranks?

Ralph, what do you think a drive train would cost using a rugged but cheapish motor rated at up to 18 volts plus suitably rugged gearing?

Can we source wheels in the 3ft 4in to 3ft 7in range (the final batch of Hunslets had 3ft 9ins and were slightly larger)?

Since this is about as basic as one can get for an 0-6-0, the cost should be a useful guide as to what is (or isn't) affordable.

[Richard T]

John you make it sound so easy,

You first need to find someone to design and produce the artwork for the brass/nickel components -  one who has designed kits previously - it is definately a skill not to be underestimated - that would set you back a few hundred £s
The cost of producing a phototool and test etch would be typically £80-£100 depending on the sheet size, you may very well need two tools for a 0-6-0 diesel.

As far as detailing is concerned, I suspect there are no parts available commercially so some patternmaking would be in order, you could commission some patterns from a professional -
very expensive, or make them yourself which is what I do. Very time consuming and you will need prototype info - detail drawings, photos, climbing over the real thing preferably.

Some of the castings could be in white metal so a centrifugal mould ( or two ) at £30+ each, or if you decide to have some lost wax castings ( buffers etc ) in brass or n/s, a mould for each of the waxes at £20+ per sprue. a decent motor and gearset ( not model boat parts ) approx £50+.

I'm not too sure about the need for laser cut steel frames and rods, whereas it would be included as part of the artwork and maybe produced in nickel silver ( being much stiffer than brass )
also the advantage of being absolutely certain that everything lines up with the body parts.
Wheels would be available from the usual suspects presuming there are suitable castings available to be machined - I've not checked to see if Slater's make anything suitable for GRS
Their drivers are typically just under £40 per axle, cast and machined versions a bit cheaper.
And then you need to invest in some stock to put the kit together and build a few - more of a time penalty for most of us or a big cost penalty if you can find someone to build them for less than a tenner an hour.
I think the time and effort involved for an individual to consider doing this would be a non starter, mainly because the market it far too small, you would have little chance of recouping your investment.
Only because I wanted these parts have I produced what I have, and the only reason that has been practical is because of the help of various people in the model trade for who I have provided patternmaking and various other jobs for in return for services rendered.
Judging by everyones differing views regarding their favourite prototypes and "wish lists"
a commitee style project I fear would be even more difficult  - what ever happened to "the buffer stop project" ?

Regards
Richard

[Richard T]

Pardon my curiosity. What is the power train(!) and motor for your little diesel loco? The last time I saw you, there was an 0-4-0 chassis with a central motor and chain drives to the two axles -is it that one?

Ralph, the power train is a more suitable chain drive setup, as per the prototype. A high quality motor gearbox assembly from Ron Chaplin driving a 3/16 intermediate shaft which has mounted Delrin sprockets and chain, driving standard 1/4 square ended axles with driving wheels from Walsall Model Industries rim insulated on one side.
The motor assy and Delrin chain is perfectly capable of pulling a few wagons just like the prototype 48DS ( which at 8tons had its limitations - I know I have driven one )

You could just drive one axle with a motor gearbox but I suspect it would be a disappointment.

Regards

Richard

[John Candy]

Richard,

Thank you for the outline of the costs involved.

The CAD drawing for the etching and / or laser cutting is (I believe) something which Mike has said he may be willing to assist with (correct me if I am wrong Mike).

Pattern-making is something which I regularly do (several of Mike's recent van releases employ my patterns) and I undertake both whitemetal and resin casting of most items for my wagons. I could handle castings such as the radiator / front end section and the air tanks. The buffers would need to be brass/steel but GRS 08 buffers would probably be suitable.

The wheels are likely to be the major cost and I have yet to check to see whether Slaters make any for GRS which may be suitable (the only possible candidate is the GWR 1361 class 0-6-0 saddle tank).

I know it won't be simple but then it wouldn't be much fun.

Don't anticipate "mass production", perhaps the wrong impression has been given by the RTR tag : Just a steady stream gauged to meet demand from the discerning customer.

They could be sold via Ebay, the Society's website and through the Society's exhibition stand.
The marketing and overall co-ordination would have to be through the Society.
I am retired and don't want the complications of business accounting, tax and NI contribution hassles.
Retired to get away from all that!

Regards,
John

[John Candy]

Richard,

You asked about the buffer stop.
I should have added that John Witts has that matter in hand and produced a very nice pre-production sample at the Dereham exhibition.
His target price is under 40 GBP which was the cost of the sample.
He is looking to find a supplier able to provide a more competitive price.

John.

Not a very good image but it is a blow up of a very small section of a photo of the Dereham stand.

[cabbage]

John,

The Brandbright RSA 37 comes in at 47mm (3'6") and they will supply it as wheels and axles. The axle shaft is 6.35mm however...

If you examine the PNG above then an 0-6-0  chassis roughs out to:

Barndbright RSA 37                          £26.22p  (2 sets of wheels and axles -they supply in pairs of course -so 3 sets for 2 chassis)
MFA 980D MOTOR AND GEARBOX        £28.68p  24 Volt motor version, 38:1 reduction, RE-385 5 pole motor
380 series motor heat sink                 £3.99p   Sorry but I do think a heat sink is needed!
Synchroflex 6mm 16T timing cogs       £11.48p (4 cogs) -will need drilling to size (supplied with pilots).
Timing belts                                    £7.00p   (2 belts)
Bevel gear mod 1  B1.0 101H30          £X.XXp  (2 gears rqd) Muffet Gears are asleep until 9 am tomorrow!

Cost excluding bevel gears                £77.37p

That is the cost for just 1 chassis ensemble -once we hit 6 then the prices drop and we can get a 10% discount!

There will have to be a U frame fabricated to hold the motor and gearbox inline with the axle that straddles it. This could either be folded or fabricated from 2mm sheet steel.

Nothing major is anticipated other than the boring (!) job of taking all the gears out to 6.35mm. I would use a Slocombe and then hand ream it to size -but I am somewhat "quaintly olde fashioned" in that regard...

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Richard,

Yes, that is the one I saw by your tea cup at the NEC last year.

I am going to use toothed belts -exactly the same as a good old fashioned line printer!!!

regards

ralph

[John Candy]

Thanks Ralph,

Those look to be encouraging figures (especially dispensing with the expensive Slaters wheels).
Have been looking again at the USA Trains spares list for their steam "dockside" loco and the whhels look to be about the right size for an 05 and have a similar number of spokes and similar balance weights, so that could be a possible source of even cheaper metal wheels and axles.

Regards,
John.

[Richard T]

No Ralph, the one you saw had enormouse roller chain from our friends at Technobots and an oversized  Maxon motor with a two stage gearbox.
An interesting first prototype but unneccesarily powerful and expensive.

Regards

Richard